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kim_donnelly93

need some urgent advice on window seat vs. bay window

Kim Donnelly
hace 6 años

So we have a bit of a disaster at the moment .... among other renovations we asked our contractor to replace a large (105") picture window with a window seat. We showed him pictures of bay shaped windows with a window seat. We went over dimensions with him with seat about 18" up from floor, about 12" of wall, then three windows with larger window in center. Windows themselves were about 52" tall - so you have 18" from floor, 12" of wood, 52" of window and a 14" header for our 8 ft ceiling.


He ordered the window; we were a little surprised at how much wood was between the window panes mentioned in the receipt. He asked us to talk to the window dealer (a Mi windows distributor) and we explained that we wanted a window seat and discussed those dimensions and they were ok. The windows would bit more wood vs. window than we wanted but ok.


So today the window arrived and we have a mess. Total surprise to us - The window has a large base at the bottom of the window level. What we have is a bay window with a large sill 30" up in the air. That totally precludes the window seat use because there is no way to build the 12" of wall and then the seat itself. The contractor says "well you verified it" - but all we verified were actual window pane sizes. There was nothing to verify in terms of a "base" we didn't know was there!


Spoke to the assistant at the window company who told us to call back on Monday because the boss wasn't in and "that's not a bay window" - of course what we asked for wasn't a bay window - it was a window seat!


Contractor still wanted to put in bad window and cope but I vetoed and said just put plywood back. I suspect head Contractor did not "get" the window seat idea despite pictures and specs; assistant contractor said we probably should have ordered taller windows - which is one now obvious option but we preferred wall or wood backing to glass for the 12" portion and we didn't know that the window delivered would preclude that.


We need advice in dealing with the window place: Can what is obviously a manufactured window unit be opened and "stretched" to include additional wood below the windows to accommodate a window seat? Is such a thing even orderable from scratch in the bay window world? Or do we need to just order longer panes of glass to accommodate this and put cushions up against the windows?




Respuesta destacada
  • Kim Donnelly
    Autor original
    hace 6 años

    Contractor and window supplier talked it through.

    Today we visited the window supplier and okay'd the order making the window a bit more than 64". They will take back the other window. We made sure the new window was tempered glass. Also made the side windows egress-able.

    I suspect the bench depth will be a little less than we want and we may need to built out a little bit into the room eventually - but this should work. The larger window will be striking. I'll post pictures.

    Again thank you for all your help.

    Comentarios (25)

    • PRO
      Michael Design
      hace 6 años

      Post pictures.

      Did you approve a shop drawing which indicated the outside dimensions of the window frame and the glass area? Is the problem that the frames are wider than you expected?

      Or... what exactly if anything did you approve/sign off on?

      Post that as well.

      This can easily turn into a "he said/she said" situation unless you have paperwork.


    • Kim Donnelly
      Autor original
      hace 6 años

      i will post shortly. but that's not the problem. we knew about the frames.

      the problem is that that at the bottom of the 52" long window we approved, the windows have a base platform joining them as wide as a narrow window seat.

      the problem is that the actual window seat needs to be closer to 64" down from the ceiling. we thought the unit consisted of the three windows joined at an angle, not the three windows joined at an angle with a thick (think 1-2 ft) sill base joining them at the end of the glass. this precludes building anything "in" to the windows. all you have it that "seat" floating too high in the air.


    • PRO
      Michael Design
      hace 6 años

      Post pictures.

    • PRO
      HALLETT & Co.
      hace 6 años
      Unfortunately they ordered a bay window unit, versus three windows to be installed in a bay. Hopefully they have a good enough relationship with this supplier that it can be sent back and exchanged for three separate units. They may be able to remove the plywood ‘sill’ but I doubt it.
    • PRO
      Kristin Petro Interiors, Inc.
      hace 6 años

      If you are returning or exchanging the windows, please make sure the new windows are ordered TEMPERED, which is a safety code in many areas for windows above a window seat. You may have already done this, but it's often overlooked, even by experienced contractors.

      I agree with Hallett...the windows should have been ordered separately and not as a ganged unit.

    • PRO
      Brickwood Builders, Inc.
      hace 6 años

      Pictures are needed.

      An actual "bay window" is a window that is made to protrude beyond the plane of the exterior walls and the walls themselves are not angled - they are straight. Therefore, there must be a top and bottom "shelf" to close off the space that is open to the exterior. If one speaks to a window company using the term bay window, this is what they will order.

      Sometimes people use the wrong term and are describing an area within a room that is created (floor to ceiling) where the walls themselves are angled and independently framed windows are inserted. The windows are not mulled together as a unit. Window seating may be utilized in this bumped out space.

      Seems that there is confusion among all the parties. Are your walls actually angled?

    • Kim Donnelly
      Autor original
      hace 6 años


      Here's what husband verbally okayed.

      and this is what came.

      Given that we are replacing one large picture window I am not thrilled by how much window space I'm losing but that's not the real issue. As you can surmise the real issue is that the stage shaped "platform" at the bottom is too high and too small to be a window seat but its existence precludes building an actual window seat.

      The contractor so far is pretty much throwing up his hands and asking the window guy to just call us. I don't have high hopes of exchange or return but perhaps he'd discount a replacement.

      I understand that for real flexibility you'd want to just order 3 windows and build a bay yourself. The funny thing though is that I don't really care about or want a bay, particularly for large $'s. All I want is a window seat; having to replace the old leaky picture window seemed to provide a good opportunity to have one.

      Is there any possibility to do a window seat with just a unit of any type? either with longer windows or a taller unit with the same size windows? Do vendors offer that option?

    • Kim Donnelly
      Autor original
      hace 6 años

      Hi Brickwood -

      No our walls aren't angled and we didn't ask for a bay window. We don't care about a bay. We asked to replace a large picture window with a window seat. Bay/box, slightly (but not fully) built into room - we don't care.

      Contractor said he could do this with a bay window. When we spoke to the contractor and window vendor we explained exactly what we wanted, showed lots of pictures called "window seat bay windows" (some from houzz), and described the bench at 18" from floor with a 12" wood backrest then 52" of window. The vendor spec'd the window. Never mentioned the base.

      I understand now exactly what you are saying - but until this morning I had no idea. I certainly couldn't deduce it from the paperwork. I wish that either my contractor or the window vendor had realized that what they were specing wouldn't work.

      What I need help with is whether a recessed reading nook is even possible with a window unit of any kind and what folks' recommendations might be. If it's not and if we're talking fully baying out walls I might give up and just go with a picture.

      thanks!



    • PRO
      Michael Design
      hace 6 años
      Última modificación: hace 6 años

      Yup - you ordered it with a seat and head board as per your shop drawing.

      These boards are sometimes removable. If it was removed are the windows the correct size?

      Post a picture of the wall/room where it is to be placed. Inside and out.

    • chiflipper
      hace 6 años

      "contractor and window vendor we explained exactly what we wanted, showed lots of pictures called "window seat bay windows" (some from houzz), and described the bench at 18" from floor with a 12" wood backrest then 52" of window."

      It appears neither the contractor NOR the vendor paid any attention to your specifications...the part about a 12" wood backrest. You showed them photos, you gave them "numbers". What you received was not what you requested. I hope that the contractor paid for the window. If so, it's his problem. If you paid for the window, throw yourself on the mercy of the manufacturer, and hope they will refund some of your cost...then find a new contractor with better listening skills.

    • Kim Donnelly
      Autor original
      hace 6 años

      Hi Michael and chiflipper,


      Ok - I can't post pictures of the room at the moment because it looks like solid boards inside and out. The wall is flat with a big hole in it about 105" wide and 51+" high.

      Below is a very poor freehand drawing of the desired window seat I made to explain (no use of those mechanical drawing skills!!!). Michael - you asked whether the window is the right size. If the board could be removed the window is the right size for the 52" I marked. That's what we approved. The problem is that it doesn't take into account the 12" of wood as a base that would have needed to be built to mount the window on. What's a little funny is that when my husband showed me the window dimensions they had agreed on I asked about whether the window shouldn't come down to 64" and he said he didn't want us leaning on glass - which makes sense of course. The problem is that neither of us realized that it probably had to be factored into the window itself rather than having the contractor build it given this solution.

      This contractor has done several other rooms and a garage for us and has been good to work with. We've been happy. This is really his first fail (and yes it's a big one). It could partially be that English isn't his first language, but I think it's a conceptual miss too. He thought he understood what we wanted when he clearly could not have. He bought the window.

      Unfortunately (you've probably heard this story before) we have one bathroom totally demolished as well as our center hall ceiling removed in mid-job with him so I don't think this is an ideal breakup time if it can be avoided ... We'll talk to the window guys on Monday and see what's doable.

      Do either of you know whether window vendors do that 12" wood piece? I'd imagine they might? Or do we need longer windows? Also given that the seat seems likely to be integral would we have options to ensure it's the right width?

      [Obviously if we stay the course we're going to have to be much more involved in the GC aspects than I would have planned.]



    • PRO
      Brickwood Builders, Inc.
      hace 6 años
      Última modificación: hace 6 años

      If your wall is flat then what you drew up cannot be done without knocking out the wall, creating angled walls in which the seat would sit, and then creating a floor and ceiling in the bumped out wall area. You are trying to put a square peg in a round hole. It would be a major project at significant expense.

      Just having an angled window on a straight wall does not give you the ability to do what you drew. This is apples and oranges.

    • PRO
      Patricia Colwell Consulting
      hace 6 años

      Yep.

    • User
      hace 6 años
      Última modificación: hace 6 años

      Not to mention that the dimensions you want to use would be too small for a comfortable window seat. They do make for a nice bay window. But if you want a true angled window seat, that requires a lot more room, and a lot more construction. What you want can’t physically be done in the space that you have.

      Who did the design and documentation for all of this mish mash? The design documents that communicate dimensions, materials ordering, and expectations? No designer or architect involvement, right? This is a design failure. Because it’s incumbent on the designer to be clear, and document it all.

      That falls on your shoulders, as you were the one providing the specifications. And you didn’t understand that you were using incorrect terminology, dimensions, and a whole host of other things. That is not the window manufacturers issue, nor the contractors. It’s clear that they were in tandem in their understanding of what you were describing as no wall framing has occurred.

      You need to drop back, and have this redesigned by a Pro, and requoted. It will be a substantially more expensive project.

    • Kim Donnelly
      Autor original
      hace 6 años

      Hi Brick and Patricia,

      That was what I thought the contractor was doing, but incorporating windows in a bay. Alternately I though he might be using a bay window unit (which I did not know had a seat) to take care of the "roof" portion but building out a base underneath.

      I think what we'll end up with is extending the windows down another foot. Then the base will be right for what we intended although our backs will be to glass unless we build something out of the seat to cover it.

    • Kim Donnelly
      Autor original
      hace 6 años

      Sophie -

      I disagree. I did not design this. I have no pretensions to being a designer and for many other aspects of the renovation we have indeed had formal plans drawn up. [I also know from experience that having an architect involved is far from a panacea .... but that's another story or stories].

      For this room we knew we needed to replace the large leaky picture window and instead of replacing in kind we asked whether it would be possible and reasonable to build a window seat and what would be involved. We showed the contractor many pictures of window seats and shared the required dimension ranges (not exact dimensions) from various articles. He said a bay window would take care of it and no separate plans were required.

      I include the manufacturer's literature excerpt that says their Bay and Bow windows can be used as window seats. It seemed (and actually still seems) a reasonable solution.

      Projection Window

      Bay and Bow windows are like a piece of fine furniture for the façade of your home. These unique windows project from your home, creating additional space that can be used for a variety of purposes, such as a window seat or displaying meaningful trinkets. Our vinyl windows (typically double-hung or casement windows) are inserted into a solid frame to create this unique look that adds style to any home. Bay windows typically have three lites (one central fixed lite and two flanking operational lites) at 20-25-degree angles. Bow windows most commonly consist of four lites, all of which can be fixed or operational, set at 10-15 degree angles.


      The contractor asked us to describe what we wanted to the window vendor as well and we did. We never used the term bay window. We only talked in terms of window seat. The window vendor also did not dissuade us or suggest we needed an addition instead of a window. The window vendor spec'd the window we needed. Given that we have 8 foot ceilings - this would have been a really good place to catch that a 52" bay window wouldn't be long enough to provide a seat at a reasonable height off the floor. I think that's the key flaw here - plus someone's telling us that (unless I'm wrong) we weren't going to get the wood backing.


      Tomorrow should be interesting ...
















    • Kim Donnelly
      Autor original
      hace 6 años

      BTW - I'm in no way saying that we have no fault. It's all ultimately our fault. Just hoping it can be salvaged. Worse come to worst we'll just put another picture window back.


      But hoping for something like:

    • PRO
      Custom Home Resources
      hace 6 años

      Kim, this sounds so disappointing and I hope you can come to a workable answer. I'll offer my perspective on a creative solution if you're stuck with what they delivered. As someone who has lived with a three-window bay (no bench), I would suggest you think about your window treatments now if you haven't already. The photo with the blue draperies (hung on the outside) is one way to go, but it precludes using the bench easily if you need to close the drapes for privacy. Depending on what's outside, you may want coverings on the actual windows. You could install inside-mount blinds, shutters, or spring loaded rods for curtains, but if you want a cohesive horizontal look of hanging draperies that you can draw open and closed, you'll need wall space to attach support rods between the windows. So, having some actual wall between the windows in that scenario is actually helpful for something to drill into. Another thought, if the shelf isn't wide enough to serve as a bench itself, would be to put a freestanding bench or upholstered chaise in front of the window if there is space. Then you can capitalize on the shelf as a flat space for a warm beverage, book, folded blanket, extra pillows, or potted plants. Just a couple of thoughts if you have to go with what they delivered.

    • Kim Donnelly
      Autor original
      hace 6 años

      Good news is that the window vendor agrees that the window as delivered does not do what we described to him. He is working with the contractor to come up with the best solution - whether that's removing the bay window seat and building a micro-addition underneath or just lengthening the window. I've certainly learned a lot this weekend :-) Thanks for all your help and interaction.

    • katinparadise
      hace 6 años

      following

    • katinparadise
      hace 6 años

      Good luck with getting this done the way you had hoped Kim.

    • Susan Davis
      hace 6 años

      Can you even put a window seat in a bay window without some sort of support of footings and foundations? Or can you just make it a bumped out bay? Doesn't a bay window have to be built on footings and a foundation and then you can put the window seat in? Curious....maybe that was the problem in communication?

      Bay from the outside

      Atherton, California Luxury Home by Markay Johnson Construction · Más información

      Bay window with custom bench

      Parkside House · Más información

    • PRO
      Michael Design
      hace 6 años

      Yes, Susan Davis, window seats require support if they are projecting beyond the plane of the support wall. Fortunately, there are many easy and relatively inexpensive ways of achieving this support. The most common being angled brackets on the underside of the projection which angle back to and are supported by solid structure at the main wall. The brackets are often buried within an exterior skirt of siding material so you never know it is there.

      A good designer can make this happen.


    • Kim Donnelly
      Autor original
      hace 5 años
      It’s in and it’s beautiful. Sorry for light balance on photo I was rushing this AM. We feel as though we’re in the treetops when we sit in it. At current depth it’s fine to relax in but we plan to build bookcases to the sides surrounding to give us another 6-8 inches. As a side benefit this room is up a half story from our center hall and the almost floor to ceiling vista is viewable as you stand in our center hall and glance up. Are there imperfections? Yes. But overall very happy. And thanks so much for your support. On to the bathroom project!
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