Horizontal stair rails - how do these pass code?
When my friend was building her gorgeous new house, she chose something very similar to this for her stairs.
They have a two-year-old and a baby on the way and she was not at all happy when I pointed out that the rail was basically a giant ladder. Sure enough, now that they've moved in, they can't keep the toddler away from it. They've have had to cover it with blankets and are thinking of installing acrylic panels in front of it to keep the kids off.
We got into all kinds of trouble for having our vertical spindles spaced a tad too far apart, yet this passes code? I don't get it.
Comentarios (66)
PROLinda
hace 6 añosBut it wasn't against school rules to have a rifle or shotgun in the gun rack in the back window of the pickup truck
Porter Edun
hace 6 añosI think we're being a bit harsh on Jan.... I was in Hawaii years back and my little one got her head stuck between the metal balusters of the large porch of an outside dining area. The waitress said, "no problem, I solve this problem". It was really odd she buttered up my child's head (yes, butter) and he slipped right back through with a bit of resistance and a lot of stress me saying, "no, no, nooooo, wait, stopppp". My Emergency Room, MD husband was ready to call the fire department and was not a nice man with her ..... nope, the waitress did it... however.. that's neither here nor there. It's a good story we reflect upon and it's a hazard!
I agree with the plexiglass for the time being for pure safety purposes as stated above. These little ones manage to climb and if not get their small heads in to spaces one would not think they could ever fit...
Did I drink water from a hose? I did... Did I ride a bike without a helmet? Yes, I did... Did I walk home from school alone at 6, 7, 8 years old? Yes...
Doesn't matter, it's a hazard and you can never forgive yourself if anything happens so get the plexiglass!! As Jan states I believe she doesn't get how we survived yet things now are different in some strange way?? I may be off the mark... however, you need to protect your little beans (my name for them) and that's what needs to be done..
Sorry, I digressed.
PROJAN MOYER
hace 6 añosÚltima modificación: hace 6 añosBeth- I am thrilled you survived such horrendous and benign neglect. : ) and raised another polite survivor. : ) How long a ladder was needed to do the tree climb rescues btw......?
miss lindsey (She/Her)
hace 6 añosApparently not too hot where Beth H. is!! Lololol
A thousand thumbs up.
PROBeth H. :
hace 6 añosÚltima modificación: hace 6 añosnone. lol. figure it out for themselves. ditto w/the outlets. if you stuck something in there and got shocked, you learned about electricity and never to do it again. someone should have called social services on me......
And Jan, it's amazing we all made it through childhood. remember 'mom seatbelts'? Crossing the street by yourself going to school? Walking to school by yourself?? But we were all polite to adults. and if our friends mom got mad at us, they swatted us. if you did something you shouldn't do in school, you got swatted. Heck I got the paddle in the 6th grade. the only girl! You didn't dare threaten to call the police. hell, the policeman would swat you too. my point is, we were respectful and minded our manners. there was no such thing as a student talking back to a teacher or god forbid, striking a teacher! Look at these kids in class now! poor teachers can't do a damn thing without fear of going to jail. I guarantee you, not one of those brats got a swat at home.
LMAO Lindsey. it's boiling here!!
and btw, my retort was in direct reference to comparing a swat w/child abuse. I'm not trying to downplay dangers that children can get into around the home (i can't believe I have explain this but I know someone would come on here and call me a lazy neglectful parent) .
PROJoseph Corlett, LLC
hace 6 añosÚltima modificación: hace 6 años"Not everyone has little ones to consider and therefore can make more aesthetically pleasing decisions."
Sorry, but even childless couples get visitors. My loaded handgun with the safety off comes off the night stand when they visit. You can't put a guardrail in a safe.
miss lindsey (She/Her)
hace 6 añosJoseph the main difference being I'm not going to let my kid climb my host's walls for more than .5 seconds, which is all it takes for a gun to kill someone. In other words, much different stakes.
- PRO
Joseph Corlett, LLC
hace 6 añosYour kid will climb and die on a ladder guardrail way before he gets to my handgun, believe me.
typeandrun
hace 6 añosPretty sure JAN MOYER walked to and from school every day five miles uphill both ways. Just because you can quote childhood "survival" stories, doesn't mean there aren't stories that did not end so well.
marrymaid
hace 6 añosJan Moyer is correct. Parents, know where your children are or hopefully you have a good nanny. We drank water out of hoses, played outside after dark, rode without seat belts and survived and our parents were in charge. If toddlers climbed where they were not allowed they were corrected until it sunk in and it took time and effort. Many now do not want to put in the time or energy. Get over it!!!!!
Kicksychick
hace 6 añosComparing the past to the present for issues of safety is usually irrelevant. We used to smoke cigarettes and drive in cars with no seat belts, but now that we know better, we do better. Just because some children survived doesn't mean all children survived.
Millie raises an important point: blatant safety issues still remain in our homes. Some are caused by inconsistent building codes as she and Fred S. pointed out with good examples. Others are caused by designers who value aesthetics over safety (or don't think about safety)
I'm glad Millie pointed out the potential problem before her friend's toddler climbed over top! Her friend should take responsibility for the issue and replace the railing. I could not imagine a child falling over top to their death and anyone saying to the parent "you should have given him a swat", or "you shouldn't have looked away for 30 seconds!".
Margaret Schultz
hace 6 añosI'm thinking acm and others have the right solution. Put up something temporary, till the kids are older, then you won't have to do any costly changes and the house will still be gorgeous years from now when you can easily remove these temp solutions.
miss lindsey (She/Her)
hace 6 añosI believe you Joseph. My point wasn't that you are an irresponsible gun owner, but rather that in any hypothetical home with *any* hypothetical gun, it only takes an instant of inattention to cause tragedy, whereas most parents would not allow their children to climb on someone else's railings for even an instant. And if they did the potential results are not nearly as fatal. Obviously, guns kill more kids than do stairs. So although gun owners *must* keep their guns properly secured at all times, childless people should not *have to* design their homes for child safety.
User
hace 6 añosÚltima modificación: hace 6 añosBack to the subject. When a child can slip through the 4" spacing of a handrail with vertcal spindles, and then end up hanging by their head that won't fit through (seen it happen, but caught it), then vertical rails need "childproofed" too.
So, why does it matter which way the rails run if you have to use plexiglass either way? And, if everyone spaced the spindles at 3" to avoid plexiglass, you would get a sharp increase in cat hangings :D
Ladder for tree? I believe the tree IS the ladder. I can climb both ways, but rappelling is more fun.
Renee
hace 6 añosWhy anyone would want to leave an obvious hazard so their children and their friends' children will figure it out or die trying is beyond stupid. Anyone who would hire a designer who overlooked such hazards in design is almost as stupid as the designer.
Gee whiz. Plenty of ways for kids to die testing their limits without a roadmap.
Put up plexiglass.
PROFernandez Architecture
hace 6 añosThe stair rail does not comply with the code in safety area. This is a typical unprofessional advisor because it is completely unsafe.
Sometimes hire a non licensed profesional cost more solving mistakes and serious issues that start with the correct professional.
Deirdre
hace 6 años@Beth H and @JAN – you are right this is not my soapbox. And I apologize for being harsh to Jan. Unfortunately, I am all too real. I wish all parents could stop with a light swat, but in my family and at least two other families I've known, that was not the case. I wish I could unsee those nightmares (that all started out with just a little tap to begin with), and obviously I've got some more personal work to do on it. Please, i just ask that you consider your words carefully when you are a pro. I think your words may carry more weight than you realize. I still don't think laying a hand on a child is the best first way to handle safety issues. I wish I could find it humorous and no big deal. I really do, but I don't think I'm alone in this.- PRO
JAN MOYER
hace 6 añosÚltima modificación: hace 6 añosPerhaps you are missing my point, and that of Beths. It is BECAUSE the world at large is so many ways unsafe that the stern look......a harsher tone than your usual, and yes, even the quick LIGHT swat that occurs so rarely it's an attention getter, actually works in telegraphing you mean business. That you are in charge of the house and the safety of the small person, the comfort.
Children don't get that delightful, blissful, carefree look on their faces when asleep, from absolutely nothing. Testing you however, is part of growing, and when the consequences are dangerous, you need to transmit that in a way that quickly makes an impression on a giggling idiot ( for all intents and purposes only). You do it because you simply can NOT eliminate all the potentially dangerous things in this world, no matter how many you remove from your home.
I've seen first hand some very suspect parenting. The same mommy who won't allow a child a whiff of a paint fume, stands grinning as the child jumps on the bed. Want to know how many children arrive in emergency wards, or even die after lunging forward to hit the corner of a dresser.? Witnessing a three year old do this as I installed a houseful, I swiftly grabbed his arm, and issued a stern faced, "No,Honey, that is not safe, lets jump out here on the FLOOR and pillows!. .You don't want to know after that. Let's say mommy wasn't happy. At all.
I see plenty of "young, new parenting" I see ( unfortunately) beautiful children I can not bear to be around. I see chaos in homes resulting from the inability to ever even utter the "no" word! Some belief that more toys, undivided attention, more un eaten snacks (and juice boxes), more planned activities and satisfying every moment to moment whim of this little person will make that little person happier or more agreeable. HA! Let me out, please. I can not bear the din of the screaming , overwhelmed, over tired, and very unhappy little human in my midst.
Sorry, but to each their own, and their own way. No small child really WANTS this control of their own circumstances. It's discomforting to them,. ........... and to everyone near them.
PROGN Builders L.L.C
hace 6 años@OP Local climb-ability restrictions are not in any current code, BUT some local jurisdictions may still limit the use of horizontal cable railing in some situations.
That being said, keep in mind that many Architects will not recommend installing railings with horizontal bars of certain size when safety is a concern, because they're subject to bending and stress and they're very unforgiving relative to cable, so in many cases it is better to use a cable system railing instead of railing with horizontal bars.
Liz H
hace 6 añosParents who occasionally "swatted you as a reminder of who exactly ran the plantation..." What? Really, Jan, this is an offensive metaphor.typeandrun
hace 6 años"Witnessing a three year old do this as I installed a houseful, I swiftly grabbed his arm, and issued a stern faced, "No,Honey, that is not safe, lets jump out here on the FLOOR and pillows!. .You don't want to know after that. Let's say mommy wasn't happy. At all."
^^^ if I had a professional in my house and they did that, that would be the last time I would be using their services. Mommy was not happy at all because mommy was standing there. YOU the decorator say to mommy, "I can't continue this installation with junior's distracting behavior", and YOU stop what you are doing. Let mommy handle it, this was NOT a life threatening behavior on the child's part and you have no business laying a hand or disciplining a child. Judge all you want, I would too, but keep your hands to yourself.
orangecamera
hace 6 añosAm I the only one who thought of electrifying the horizontal rails, like they do with fences?
(I'm only partly kidding)
Porter Edun
hace 6 añosBack to the subject for the OP.... we've all shared here myself included.
Plexiglass.... Millie, you are a good friend to help out as such. Good luck to you!
miss lindsey (She/Her)
hace 6 añosWell, just to stir up the pot some more, I don't think OP was looking to help her friend, who seems to already have a plausible solution in mind: "They've have had to cover it with blankets and are thinking of installing acrylic panels in front of it to keep the kids off."
Her post was more to the effect of, Why can she get away with this when I got in trouble for that: "We got into all kinds of trouble for having our vertical spindles spaced a tad too far apart, yet this passes code? I don't get it."
OP hasn't been back to like, thank, or comment on anything written here. It was a post just begging for a fight, and it got one for sure!
sharon1ha
hace 6 añosWOW!! As I read all the comments I am appalled at how off subject they are. Let's stick to the problem at hand, the railing and help the homeowner solve her problem in the most efficient way. I will not even comment on proper parenting, I have my own beliefs which I am sure are very different from some of the comments here but will keep them to myself, it is not the place for them. I think the homeowners need to do what is best for them and their family and it sounds like plexiglass may be the way to go and it can be removed should the need arise. Good luck, I am sure you will come up with the solution that works for you and yours.- PRO
JAN MOYER
hace 6 añosNot that it matters...... but just as an FYI, that child, having well outgrown his crib, was jumping for joy over a new "truck themed big boy room. Literally jumping on a new queen bed, smack between side tables and not far from a six drawer dresser.
Much to your surprise I am sure, we've gone on to other projects in that household. I suspect Mom was upset at the moment, as the child cried. For exactly twenty seconds. I presume this was more from the stern look as his arm was held with the same strength with which I would grab a linen dishtowel towel. But maybe stern looks don't happen there that often, I can't say, I don't live with them. But.......off topic and hardly matters, does it.
Miss Millie
Autor originalhace 6 añosÚltima modificación: hace 6 añosWell... wow. I was definitely not expecting such a reaction! No, Lindsey, I wasn't begging for a fight. I was merely asking a question about building codes and using my limited experience with construction and design as a basis. Thanks to everyone who commented and answered my question. This has certainly been an interesting thread.
User
hace 6 añosTo PORTER Edun - my son did the same thing outside of our step railing. But he was a skinny little thing n I managed to pull his body thru it. I always tell him he had a big head. Lol. :).
Nancy Walton
hace 6 añosIn many cases, if a child is determined to climb the railing, he/she will find something to climb on and drag it over to the edge, even if there is plexiglass there. Yes, we as parents, have to be ever vigilant so our kids don't get hurt. Many children have fallen out of trees and broken an arm, a leg, or a collar bone. They learned. Some children have fallen out of trees and died. They had no chance to learn. We don't know what our kids try to do when we are not there. We just pray they are safe. I used to run across the street in front of traffic because I knew I could run fast, but I must have given the drivers of those vehicles heart attacks. We cannot always be there for our children and all those "helicopter" parents do is create children who are overly dependent on their parents and don't leave the "nest" until they're in their thirties.
miss lindsey (She/Her)
hace 6 añosSorry Millie, I expressed that part of my comment badly. I didn't think you personally wanted a fight, just that this type of post *always* creates controversy and debate.
User
hace 6 añosIt's interesting to me that people make design choices based on living with little kids (such as open concept or bedrooms on the same floor) when kids are small for such a relatively short period of time. By the time they are tweens you'll be begging for some space and walls to get away from them!
But then again I usually think of people
living in a house for decades but I guess there are people who move every 5 years or so and only need to think in the shorter term.
Miss Millie
Autor originalhace 6 añosThanks Lindsey. I obviously read your comment with tone, so I appreciate the clarification.
Truey - You make a good point. However, my youngest is eight and I would trust him not to climb a horizontal rail, but I certainly wouldn't trust his friends. Almost every day I have to get one of the neighbor boys off our roof, out of the window wells, etc. He's learning that he can't act at my house the way he must at home, but he'd still consider that rail a supreme challenge. I would worry about a lawsuit in case he got hurt.
- PRO
GannonCo
hace 6 añosThis is just plain ridiculous. The code is written so a child's head doesn't get stuck and that's it. I am sure as someone noted above there are local codes that might dictate otherwise but that would also be enforceable from the date it is written.
I have kids and your entire house is a danger. I have learned one thing being a parent and that is the parents that complain the most are the ones who's children are allowed to just do whatever they want because they don't believe in reprimanding little Johnny in fear of hurt his feelings. Parent your own child and stop asking the Govt to do it.
I am currently in SOCAL the land of the don't you dare tell kids they are ever doing anything wrong. Way too many parents applauding for their kids getting a 10th place trophy. Do you know what it is like standing in line at Starbucks so the mom of the year can have their 3year old order their latte and the rest of us have to stand there and wait 5 minutes so the little princess can hold up the line as the mom is smiling ear to ear at what everyone else on line hears as babble. Arrogant entitled parents raising kids, sometimes I think the parents need time out.
Reprimand them if they keep climbing. If it doesn't work I guess deal with child proofing it. I like horizontal railings and don't want to loose the choice of having them because you have too much free time, they bought the house not me. Not everyone has kids.You already have the solution, leave the blankets or change the railing but don't regulate what I want. Now lets hear from the Rikki Lake crowd how they take care of my children and how dare you!
- PRO
GN Builders L.L.C
hace 6 añosMillie, if your son's friends were told not to do something and they do it again, throw them out and tell him to stay out unless they respect your wishes. Period.
I grew up in a tough neighborhood and if we got out of line no matter who's house we were at we would get our butts kicked... so we knew better than getting out of line in somebody's house and if we went home and told our parents about it, we would get a double whopping one for disrespecting someone's house and second for being a tattletale.
- PRO
Joseph Corlett, LLC
hace 6 añosÚltima modificación: hace 6 añosThis is the stairway in our new University Town Center mall in Sarasota, FL. Here is a design that is not only beautiful, safe, and a comfortable gait (7" rise, 14" tread) and grip, but incorporates the civil rights of the disabled with the elongated volutes.
A monkey with a marker can design a good looking stair. It takes real talent, experience, skill, and artisanship to do it within the parameters of the code and ADA and look great too.
PRO- PRO
JAN MOYER
hace 6 añosÚltima modificación: hace 6 añosLMAO. Really : ) Millie, how do you feel about..........Arizona? I fear you shall not last long in LALA land, though I have to admit it seems to be "spreading".
- PRO
GN Builders L.L.C
hace 6 años@Revolutionary Gardens She didn't have to say anything (no one had to say anything for that matter), everyone knew better...
- PRO
Joseph Corlett, LLC
hace 6 añosIf you need video evidence of why we need building codes, click here please.
Nancy Walton
hace 6 añosI didn't want to watch it all the way through. I hope whoever was filming that called the police at least!
User
hace 6 añosÚltima modificación: hace 6 añosIt's impossible for building codes to protect against any possible thing a toddler would do. If that were the case, the code would ban staircases altogether (kid could fall down), bathtubs (kid could drown), electrical outlets (kid could stick finger or objects in it), stoves and ovens, light sockets, balconies, windows that open, etc. Oh yeah, and cars, knives and guns.
Best advice is to put up temporary panels for the short time that the children are old enough to climb on the rails but not old enough to understand or reliably comply with the word "no." This is really no different from the cabinet locks, toilet locks, outlet covers, stair gates and other child-proofing devices that parents use.
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User