Got ridiculous quote for remodel - should I dump contractor?
Adding 1,000 square feet + 2 car garage to small ranch. Got a quote from builder that is MORE than buying a brand new 3200 square foot, 4 bedroom, 3.5 bath home on 1.5 acres (completely new construction, mind) in New Hampshire. His explanation was that he was just quoting based on the architect's specifications & the price could be lower if we "let him do the project the way he wants to do it with best practices gained from his expertise." Should I just find another guy? I've seldom heard a sentence more ridiculous from a professional in my life.
Comentarios (98)
Lynne Mysliwiec
Autor originalhace 8 añosBut you are correct, if you divide just by the incremental square footage, it's well over 500 per square foot
Lynne Mysliwiec
Autor originalhace 8 añosAnd a teardown is not always warranted...there is no reason to disturb the existing foundation, for example....waaaaayyyy too expensive to fill it in. Plus, the existing home is in perfect condition and was constructed with modern building practices with standard dimensional lumber.
Lynne Mysliwiec
Autor originalhace 8 añosHad a long talk with contractor today. He called to apologize for not stopping the bubble machine when costs were starting to come in high. He said that he knew that there would not be a yes to the number presented (he did not have a contract ready for signature, for example). He was worried that he had "lost us"...I told him that my expectation was an open and collaborative process that would result in an appropriately priced project, but that the architect was pretty mad at him.
PROULTIMATE HARDWOOD LTD
hace 8 años@Lynne here's an example of a classic architect mistake..... hoping no one cares. This vent should be centred and no so close to obstructions.(1st pic). The 2nd is properly placed
Lynne Mysliwiec
Autor originalhace 8 añosThe architect doesn't design the HVAC system - that's up to the mechanical contractor. I know you want to blame the architect, but the HVAC plan needs to be submitted to ensure that plumbing and electrical and HVAC do not interfere with one another.
I'd say this is a numbskull HVAC problem.
PROUser
hace 8 añosagreed, Im at a loss sometimes, when people are not sure who to blame. It's really having everthing together and correct, which means your contractor should have been on top of this. Architects have visions and scale in mind, not always the utility part.
PRORozalynn Woods Interior Design
hace 8 añosGet competing quotes! Then often people select the mid-priced one. Good luck!
Lynne Mysliwiec agradeció a Rozalynn Woods Interior Design- PRO
ULTIMATE HARDWOOD LTD
hace 8 años@lynne I agree it's a numbskull move and I don't want to blame anyone. I just wanna do my job however the builds I've bn involved in if the architect stays on as the " consultant" he does have absolute power over every detail including finish on the wood. Also the builder has to get the ok from the architect to pay trades ensuring all is done to scope/plan. Fact.Lynne Mysliwiec agradeció a ULTIMATE HARDWOOD LTD santoslhauper
hace 8 añosNo architect can make a contractor do something wrong. In the example, the HVAC guy should have stopped work and pointed out the flaw. Ultimate power rests with the customer. If the customer chooses the architect's specs over the contractor's objections, so be it, but the contractor is responsible for knowing it's wrong and speaking up when an issue arises instead of just doing it because it drawn that way.
- PRO
ULTIMATE HARDWOOD LTD
hace 8 añosI agree to disagree. The customer has entrusted this to the architect. In a commercial build the customer doesn't make every decision. Anyways were getting off topic so hopefully all works out well for you. 
PROJohn James O'Brien | Inspired Living, by design
hace 8 añosÚltima modificación: hace 8 añosLynne, it sounds as if you have considerable knowledge on what things should cost in your locale. What is not clear is the actual design. There is a significant difference in cost among design options. By way of example, a renovation in Victoria, BC cost approx. $60,000 for re-wiring and lighting the house (landscape lighting not included). If you are re-wiring and re-plumbing, a lot of your money goes out of sight behind the scenes-but is money well spent. Compare that to another project in my portfolio in which two light fixtures for the foyer cost $40,000. It is very difficult to speak to cost without knowledge of the specifics. Perhaps if you take a sharp eye, knowing costs in your locale, you may be able to learn more about why the cost is so high. You can always ask the contractor to sit down with you ad walk you through the projected costs so you understand where you money is going.
Lynne Mysliwiec agradeció a John James O'Brien | Inspired Living, by design
suzyq53
hace 8 añosI'm doing a high-end reno that adds zero square feet and is probably going to be up there to. There are all kinds of expenses you probably aren't considering. I'm not saying you got a good bid, I'm just saying. Get more bids.
Lynne Mysliwiec
Autor originalhace 8 añosYou are only partially correct, Ultimate. The architect, by sealing drawings has a legal liability -- the contractor is hired to build to plans and specifications. If the contractor does and something goes wrong, then the architect's insurance pays for damage/failures. If the contractor departs from plans and specifications, then the general contractor's insurance is liable. This is why it is in the best interest of the contractor to ensure that plans and specifications are followed. In all cases, the state, local, and national building codes, electrical codes, and plumbing codes must also be satisfied.
If an architect is involved, there is a process to modify plans and specifications that ensures that changes are captured and recorded -- this again moves the liability back to the architect. In my case, I have drawings both from structural engineers and the architect.
So, if there is an error on the drawings or there is an issue of conformation to code -- it is ALWAYS in the best interest of the subs and the G.C. to point out the error, get clarification, and get a modification. If they do not, then they're liable for the boneheaded mistakes perpetrated by the subs.
My father spent 95% of his career in commercial architecture designing schools, libraries, parking structures, office buildings, banks, and even a county jail. You are correct that the architect on site verifies that a contractor built to plans & specs before releasing payment. However, the owner STILL approves all the finishes all the colors, etc.. -- I know this because I've been present when sample choices have been presented to building owners (usually the committee in charge of the project). This is why you, as the flooring subcontractor, are obligated to provide a sample, prior to installation of 40,000 square feet of cherry-stained oak flooring -- so the owner can approve the choice. It is also the sample that the architect brings to the site to verify that you did the proper installation. So, if your sample was cherry stain with a particular formula from a particular manufacturer with 3 coats of satin polyurethane, your installation of 40,000 square feet of oak flooring stained cherry had better look just like the sample you provided.
As far as approvals of colors and finishes are concerned, in commercial and residential projects, the OWNER, not the architect decides what tile they want, what finish they want on the floors, what color siding, what color roof. It's the owner's building, not the architect's. The architect might facilitate the process, but make no mistake, it's the owner. So, if you screw up and put gloss polyurethane down when the specs say satin, it's between you as the hardwood supplier and the GC's job to make things right.
And, if a sub contractor knowingly does something boneheaded because there's an error in the drawings, well, it's stupid to start pointing in all directions at once. Any HVAC guy with half a brain should have called out the problem with the location of that floor vent. Unfortunately, he must have been half a brain short that day. If this was a remodel and no one caught that the addition of the wainscot would impede the use of an already existing hvac outlet, then the only fault is that no one caught that it should be moved. If that run was going to be abandoned & you as the hardwood installer didn't realize that you needed to block it off, then... well, it's time to pull some boards and weave in some to cover that outlet.Lynne Mysliwiec
Autor originalhace 8 añosaaaaannnnnd...back to the topic at hand. :-) @ John J -- I completely agree with you about the prices of things behind the walls & the value associated with investing there. We did specify a replumb/rewire/rerun of all ductwork and that's not cheap -- which is why I took the total cost of the project and divided by the total finished square footage of the home as if it WAS new construction, not the 784 square foot addition+506 square feet of deck+576 square foot unheated attached garage.
I've nixed the deck to save and asked them to substitute a concrete patio (not pavers), but I may be able to save further simply by hiring a landscape contractor to take care of the patio.
I've nixed the dryvit in favor of hardi board (which I am betting could be further reduced to vinyl siding), and reduced the thickness of the membrane for the flat roof, and reduced the can lights, took out the fireplace (but not the framing for the fireplace), and changed the thickness of the countertops, and the flooring. They say that this took 184,770 out of the cost, but they haven't given me the quote, yet.
They don't have to worry about the lighting allowance in this case, I have fixtures from my previous house that were expensive & I brought them with me from New Hampshire & put up cheap but attractive Home Depot substitutes for them in the NH house. So, no $20,000 in light fixtures to worry about - I've got them in boxes here.Lynne Mysliwiec
Autor originalhace 8 añosOK, my fixtures were not all that expensive -- they were just Hubbardton Forge fixtures. They were probably waay too contemporary for the new owners of my old house, anyway. :-)
Lynne Mysliwiec
Autor originalhace 8 añosI might be able to save on tile and other finishes by using my Dad's to the trade discount, too -- after all, he does still own the house :-)
- PRO
ULTIMATE HARDWOOD LTD
hace 8 años@lynne so if your so well versed why are posting a thread? You already have all the answers which makes all these posts redundant... Btw I speak from CANADIAN codes/bylaws/contracts.You are correct for this situation in YOUR area. On the other hand I am correct for this situation in MY area. Lighten up ur comments are seeming very "erect". Take it easy. Go have some fun. Lighten up. 
PROLampert Dias Architects, Inc.
hace 8 añosWhoa .... Hostility from a pro is not appropriate behaviour ...
- PRO
ULTIMATE HARDWOOD LTD
hace 8 años@lampert whom are you directing that comment towards? I haven't received any hostile comments from anyone on this thread. Are you new to this post? Please explain. Your comments seem open ended - PRO
Lampert Dias Architects, Inc.
hace 8 años@ UltimateI ....I interpreted your previous comment toward lynne as hostile....I think that you should be a bit kinder toward people who post questions. Maybe I misinterpreted what I thought were harsh words...
Lynne Mysliwiec agradeció a Lampert Dias Architects, Inc. Lynne Mysliwiec
Autor originalhace 8 añosI think we're all good here. I'm hoping that some of the pros on the contracting side will be able to offer insight about the real difference in cost between remodeling and new construction (is it 20% more expensive to do remodeling than new construction, for example, or 50%, or 200%, for example)? I provided more info about the existing home because I know that the answer is all too often "it depends on the home we're remodeling" -- if there's knob and tube and a history of crappy remodels where homeowners did boneheaded things, then there's COST there. I was planning on $150/square foot for the new stuff (~$118k) and $60/sq ft for the existing home (~$73k) since we're touching all the floors and many walls and the physical plant, I expected $15-20k for the deck, I expected $9k for the well and septic, and I was thinking that $30k would be adequate for the garage and I had no idea about the site work - there's a bunch of tree removal, but very little earth moving - maybe $12k, plus $4k for an asphalt driveway (it's only one lane, and it's quite short. That whole list above is around 263,000, NOT 590,000, NOT 412,000 (which is where they say they are now).
I know what my remodels did cost in the past and what a lot of the items cost, but I've never done new construction and I've never added on.
Lynne Mysliwiec
Autor originalhace 8 añosAnd I used $60/sq ft for the existing because there is no need for foundation or rough in or even drywall in the house. PLUS the basement is unfinished & it's a single story, so there is no limitation to access to the mechanical trades to run wiring or ductwork. This might be where my seat of the pants estimating fell apart.
PRODesign Intervention
hace 8 añosI'm really glad that so many Pro's have weighed in with very sound and comprehensive advice. If the architect/designers specify (for example) granite slabs that are $13,000 a piece because they are some rare stone, and more importantly, what the client wants....that is what I price out and specify in my very detailed line item bid. If I am bidding against another contractor who is "guesstimating" and he has but in a generic "allowance" number rather than the specific amount that the item actually costs my bid will look "ridiculously' high by comparison. The devil is in the details.
I agree with all PROS above. Get 3 bids from 3 really experienced and well recommended contractor/builders before making your decision. Just understand that most really good contractors will have their subs come bid out each facet of your project in order to get you fair pricing. So they will be having multiple plumbers/electricians/tile artisans etc. bid per your plans in order to get you the best price. It is quite a labor intensive task to get a client a really tight bid.
Lynne Mysliwiec agradeció a Design Intervention- PRO
Lampert Dias Architects, Inc.
hace 8 añosÚltima modificación: hace 8 añosFrom my years of experience, I have learned that what we do is not a science and that it can vary considerably from bid to bid and location to location.
The best way to find out what current building costs are in your area is to get at least 4 bids from local contractors and ask them for an itemized cost breakdown from each trade so that you can compare item for item each bid that you get.
This should give you a clear picture of what each item is going to cost you.
I have also found that the best way to get closer to your budget is to select the contractor that you want to work with ( once you have your bids ) and to sit down with him and your architect to determine how you can save money. Working as a team to get to where you want to be is the best way to go.
New construction can be less expensive if you don't factor in the costs of new utilities, new grading, foundations, higher building permit fees, etc.
Remodeling always includes extra costs for remodeling portions of the original building in addition to the new construction portion of the project.
After years of designing new and remodeled projects both residential and commercial, I don't think that there is an answer one way or another as to which is more expensive. Each project is different.
I personally like remodels because I love to incorporate into a project some of the historic charm of the original building.........of course sometimes an older building has no charm or redeeming qualities, but not often
I have had three clients who have decided to save money by acting as their own contractor as owner / builder. These three projects ( out of hundreds where a general contractor was hired ) all went well. In all three cases they came through wiser and happy with the results. It is a difficult task and I really don't recommend it.........My family actually did our first remodel years ago ( out of 5 total ) as our own contractor. Afterwards, we decided to hire a good general contractors from then on, and we have and it's been the right decision for us.
One more thing....if you have contractors who are all highly recommended for doing good quality work, their bids will probably be very similar. You should choose the one that you are most comfortable with and the one who is willing to work with you to help you get closer to your budget.
Lynne Mysliwiec agradeció a Lampert Dias Architects, Inc. Lynne Mysliwiec
Autor originalhace 8 añosHonestly, I'd love to be my own GC, and my Dad has his builders' license...HOWEVER, if I do an inventory of all the trades that are needed to do the process, I simply don't know enough good guys and gals in enough trades to feel comfortable about getting on their schedules, getting good prices, etc.. I know the project would take 3x longer if I was my own GC. We toyed with the idea of hiring a construction manager for a fixed cost (say 20% of the budget), and ask him/her to competitively bid out all the items & negotiate from suppliers and give him 10% of any savings to the budget as a bonus.
Lynne Mysliwiec
Autor originalhace 8 añosor even as much as 50% of any savings to the budget as a bonus.
chris81996
hace 8 añosI wouldn't represent myself in court, I'm not a trained attorney. I wouldn't operate on myself, I'm not a trained surgeon. I don't believe that I am nearly as skilled or up-to-date on products, resources or labor in the trades as my contractor is. I really feel for contractors who are spoken about in pretty denegrading terms in regard to reputation, that they are ripping folks off etc. ( Yes, I'm sure there are some bad apples). My wife and I have had 6 homes built by contractors (3 by the same contractor) that could not do enough for us, spent countless hours going over details with us, showing us where we could save money without sacrificing the outcome that we envisioned. We have sold all (but the one we currently live in) for far more than what we put into them. I give much of the credit to the building professionals that guided us through the process.
I don't believe I can do the job of a really good contractor as well as they would. Choosing a good one is key. Most people hire me to do their finances.....because they are not trained in finance.......I get that.
Lynne Mysliwiec agradeció a chris81996Lynne Mysliwiec
Autor originalhace 8 añosÚltima modificación: hace 8 años@Lampert Dias - :-( I wish there were architectural history and lovely detail associated with the teeny tiny ranch, but it's a very solid, very nicely built rectangle with a pitched roof and aluminum siding and 1968 paneling.
Here is the house...
Clarice Exterior Inspiration and Choices · Más información...and the inspiration
Sweeney Lake House · Más información
...and the concept
Clarice Exterior Inspiration and Choices · Más informaciónLynne Mysliwiec
Autor originalhace 8 añosÚltima modificación: hace 8 añosDang, don't know why the photo isn't uploading :-(. Aha! Figured it out. Uploaded image to ideabook, now I can link to it. Note - the peaked roof will not go away - the additions will have flat roofs, but the peak will stay within.
PROBrothers Custom Works
hace 8 añosLynne,
We are a design-build firm - new custom homes and light commercial - with limited and select add-on and renos.
I am not sure you can find a PRO on the contracting side who can give you reliable info on remodeling - add-on vs new construction.
It seems you have your plans, but I speak above and below of the complications addressing your desire to find a PRO for remodeling - add-on vs new construction info.
If you approached our company regarding a remodel - add-on, we would not commit to a guaranteed cost + allowances Contract to Build without "builder and permit ready" plans and specs. This policy being similar to new construction, except given certain parameters, new construction inquiries can produce an average cost per SF.
Remodels and add-ons would also have a scope of work - programming document which would detail requirements for the reno or add-on. For example, is the electrical service or septic system adequate for added footage? What structural work is required in the existing to facilitate the reno or add-on(s)? What are site prep, demo and haul off obligations? (and much more indicating further complications of renos - add-ons with site discovery required).
Lampert Dias Architects had a great - first answer response....I would add and you seem to have: first step - a capable PRO provides "builder and permit ready" plans and specs to include such things as MEP, structural engineering, OSSF (septic system) design, and perhaps programing facilitating the add-ons.
After, submit the plans to 3 (minimum) recommended - qualified contractors, instructed to bid according to plans and specs for an apples to apples comparison.
Given the thread life and your seeming status, it does not seem too late to put the plans out there.
Lynne Mysliwiec agradeció a Brothers Custom WorksLynne Mysliwiec
Autor originalhace 8 años@Brothers: We do have all the necessary zoning variances, we have septic and well permits (locations and designs approved by the county), we have complete drawings, we have complete specifications, we have complete engineering drawings. It is absolutely not too late to put the drawings out there, which is the great news. I must say that I've appreciated all of the great input from all the folks on the thread -- you've helped me sort out my thoughts & have given me a lot of great advice.
- PRO
Brothers Custom Works
hace 8 años
Lynne,
Above, a modern landscaping idea when your inspired goals have been reached. : - )I understood you had reached the readied point. "It seems you have your plans, but I speak above and below of the complications addressing your desire to find a PRO for remodeling - add-on vs new construction info."
I have seen comments by Lampert Dias Architects over the years as being very good. In this case, they say (2 times) - give the very same direction - advice I have given - put the readied plans out there.
Saw the pic of the subject home - are you in the pic sitting down in - or strolling across the drive?
Lynne Mysliwiec
Autor originalhace 8 añosÚltima modificación: hace 8 años:-) I am the little girl in the yellow sweatshirt and blue jeans playing in the dirt with her toddler cousin
Lynne Mysliwiec
Autor originalhace 8 añosI've seen the Claes Oldenburg clothespin in Philadelphia, but haven't been to Belgium to see the landscape clothespin in person - it's awesome! :-)
- PRO
ULTIMATE HARDWOOD LTD
hace 8 años@lampert they were curious that's all.@lynne I find Reno can have some unforeseen challenges yes but generally speaking new construction can have several drawbacks adding to cost such as: incompetent trades leading to trade damage due to tight timelines which in turn can obviously add to the costs. I think it's fair to say they should generally be about the same( I speak for flooring mostly). Here in my area the small guy builders are at $220/$250 sq ft to construct a new home. Hope that helps.Lynne Mysliwiec agradeció a ULTIMATE HARDWOOD LTD 
PROGN Builders L.L.C
hace 8 añosOn the general note there are many General Contractors out there and everyone is different as experience goes and as the pricing goes.
Finding a good general contractor its a task in itself.
To make it simple, I will break it up in 3 different categories based on my experience.
1. Contractor wannabe No experience at all.
2. Somewhat experience.
3. Knowledgeable and experienced in every field.
Category 1 will give a low bid to get a foot in the door and try to make it up on extras as the job progresses. Most likely they will hire cheapest guys for the job who don't know anything, some who work under someone's license, some contractors they will find on Craig's list who will offer to do the job for the lowest price without insurance, etc. Most likely the work will be botched up, or left unfinished if they cannot get more money, failed inspections, delays, poor workmanship.
Category 2 someone who was in some kind of Construction trade before and who try to act as a GC. Price will be random, will come down or beat anyone's (5k in some cases) price if negotiated or asked to beat a price if present with a previous quote. They will give the job out for bids to licensed contractors (hopefully), use the lowest bids for each job, look for cheapest materials, will get the job done just to get it done with delays in schedule, expect lots of change orders, etc.
Category 3 GC with knowledge and experience, they use the same licensed and insured contractors and job don't go out for bids, they will use best materials available, run a tight schedule, the outcome the job will be done on time with excellent workmanship by every contractor on the job, quality materials and complete customer satisfaction. They will charge 25-35% more than others, they will not match or beat price of others (It's called "chasing someone else's price").
With that said, finding a good contractor today is like playing lottery, you might get lucky or not and end up with a huge headache. Most botched up and failed jobs I came across is when Homeowners main concern is the price. Bad contractors use that tool to get the job because in many cases price blinds everyone and every red flag they might see they will disregard because the price is so good. I came across so many unfinished and botched up jobs and everyone of them for the same reason, the price they got wouldn't cover the cost of materials.
The moral of the story is, get at least 3 bids, if you spending thousands of dollars for a project, go out and talk to previous homeowners, don't rely on phone calls or emails, anyone can be on the other end telling you what you want to hear. Do some leg work and don't get scared if someone is 5-10k more than others, there could be a reason for that and one of them could be a piece of mind instead of many sleepless nights... Keep in mind you will have to live with the work that was done for many years to come and look at it every day, long after you forget how much you paid for it.
Good luck
Lynne Mysliwiec agradeció a GN Builders L.L.CLynne Mysliwiec
Autor originalhace 8 añosSo, Brothers...what exactly is the point and meaning of your latest post? I'm very curious as to what precipitated it and what your intentions are. I don't want to flag it.
- PRO
Brothers Custom Works
hace 8 añosBeing possibly misunderstood by you and others as something unintended or personal matter, no need to flag - I deleted the post.
Lynne Mysliwiec agradeció a Brothers Custom Works Lynne Mysliwiec
Autor originalhace 8 añosÚltima modificación: hace 8 añosThank you - I generally try to assume positive intentions which is why I always ask before reacting - my assumption was that you were trying to get a point across, I just wasn't sure what it was, and I was hoping it was a positive one (or for sharing common pain to build camaraderie).
- PROLynne Mysliwiec agradeció a Design Intervention
PROBerg Building & Remodeling
hace 7 añosGC from Boston here. Of course it is always good practice to get three quotes. However if those quotes don't break down the very fine details of the project you will never be able to accurately know what the difference is between them. Now let me say this usually when a client meets with an architect they are doing so to narrow down exactly what they want and designing the structure to meet all of their needs. So instead of three different builders estimating to build you that garage three separate ways. Having architectural plans that you and the architect designed tells those 3 or even 10 builders exactly what to estimate for and exactly what you want. For a builder to say let me build this the way I want too is basically saying I don't like the ideas you have and I am not interested in doing what you want. Builders are all building for the same cost. Our insurance is the same, material costs the same and general overhead is the same. If you have two builders who came in at 50k and a third who came in at 100k obviously someone did not follow the blue prints. Architectural drawings cost so much money because they provide a very valuable service. They detail your ideas and what you are looking for to every prospective contractor. They should also prevent any miss understanding of estimating. Meaning all the different builders costs should be roughly the same because nothing is open for the builder to guess at. I think you know that the builder who told you that will not be easy to work with.
Lynne Mysliwiec
Autor originalhace 7 añosÚltima modificación: hace 7 añosHe was a weird guy. I ended up buying a house that was 3,000 sq ft for less than all the quotes to turn a 1,000 sq ft house into a 2,000 sq ft house. Even after minor remodels (mirror removal, carpet removal, removal of built-ins, complete interior repaint, 1600 sq ft of maple hardwood flooring, new baseboards, drywall patching/repair), it cost me less to buy a "used" house than remodel the cottage. Crazy.
Lynne Mysliwiec
Autor originalhace 7 añosOh, and hello, Boston! I miss you (lived in NH for 20 years and worked in Wellesley)
PROCinar Interiors, Inc.
hace 7 añosSome companies will bid extremely high prices when they do not want the job or they are just too busy. We will at times and we sometimes get those consumers who are willing to pay those prices because they know our history.
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Lampert Dias Architects, Inc.