HELP! Builder saying he doesn't want to put my trim tile in here. :/

hace 9 años

última modificación:hace 9 años

What do I do here with this back splash under the cabinets? My builder is really tying me in knots. They installed the back splash and there is about half an inch of open mastic/grout between the top of the tiles and the bottom of the cabinets. There is the matching pencil trim installed under the microwave area (you can see if you are able to zoom in on second picture) and the fridge area as well as the window ledge (not shown). The builder did not use the trim pieces we had provided him when installing this. Now he says that since it is filled in with mastic/grout that adding it now will look strange sticking out so far. He wants us to use some kind of wood trim hanging off the bottom of the cabinet to cover this open grout area.

Tomorrow morning my husband is having a meeting with the builder about this. What do we do about this at this point? I feel like we paid him to do a job and do it right, but now that it is where it is, I have no idea what to do now. It's a small town and a bit of a sticky situation, so it's not like I can tell him to DO THIS or I'M NOT PAYING YOU. How can I go about this with grace and make it look right, or at least look GOOD.??

Respuesta destacada

handymam

hace 9 años

Honestly, the guy is just wrong! He needs to cut the tile already. First of all, he should have laid the tiles out and had a decision before he even put the first row of tiles on the wall. Second, why is there already mastic/ grout there? It is not your problem to remove it, he put it there. Third, he doesn't get to decide how this job is going to get finished, you, as the homeowner do! And finally, if there is room for the wood trim he is so eager to use, there is room for the tile. He needs to get over himself!!

Ordenar por:Más antigua

Comentarios (183)

PRO
Tilescape ( A Division of Tile and Glass Depot)
hace 9 años
Your tile installer needs to do the job correctly and cut the subway tile to fit. It doesn't matter what he thinks, it's your home!
loves2read
hace 9 años
Seems like most posters read the first post and just added a comment--

I imagine that the OP probably feels bullied by many of the posters--
There is nothing more full than a pack of hindsight--

I wish you luck on your exterior--
I just wonder why you came to choose this builder since I imagine there are other instances where things have gone wrong and he has been less than helpful about making them right as you envision.
Did you see a finished product and fall in love w/o seeing the imperfections that likely existed there as with yours???
mamabear03 agradeció a loves2read
handymam
hace 9 años
I imagine that the OP feels less bullied by people offering suggestions to fix the problem, support for getting the builder to fix his mistakes, and relating their own frustrations with their tile work experiences than by someone coming on and quizzing them about why they chose this builder. I am not sure how that is helpful or supportive.
mamabear03 agradeció a handymam
dbh
hace 9 años
Actually, if you read her last post, mamabear (the OP) did point out above that she's tried now to remove this thread as it's gone on too long, but can't determine how to do that. "But to me, this issue is done," she stated. She's also on to the exterior issues/problems now.

So . . . can this just end now?
PRO
Beautiful Kitchens and Bath
hace 9 años
He should have laid out his work first to see where everything would end. He could have cut an inch off the first course so the tile at the top would have been taller. also could have installed a row of pencil after the 1st course to help out the height. Seems like he's not a pro, so he shouldn't be paid like one. I feel sorry for you, cause it looks like a sloppy job and he took advantage of you. Did you see any of his work prior to hiring him?
jacksgirl1209
hace 9 años
Give us an update on what happened with your tile job
jacksgirl1209
hace 9 años
just saw your post that everything is resolved!
excellyn
hace 9 años
@Josara - good job for novice - especially love the bathroom! over and out!
Lisadoll
hace 9 años
I'm sure this issue has been resolved by now. Hopefully to YOUR satisfaction .
But this brings up an interesting issue... How contractors relate to customers.
This was straightforward. Tile work not to homeowner's satisfaction. Either he completes the job to satisfaction or you withhold payment ( whatever is allowable by law in your state).
It's a contractual issue. Not an emotional issue.
Contractors tend to address their screw ups to the female in the household FIRST,
hoping for some kind of slack. Would a man make excuses for someone he's PAYING?
BUSINESS IS BUSINESS .
I'm a female homeowner. YOU CANNOT BELIEVE the nonsense that I hear from contractors.. Whether it's the HVAC guy, the tile setter or the landscaper.
SERIOUSLY. Do they think I haven't been on my own roof? Or in my attic?
Or done any research ? If I were that dense, how do you think I could make enough money
To be a single female homeowner in Silicon Valley?

Honestly gentlemen, this type of sexism makes dealing with contractors a pain in the ass.

I'm in the trades myself, and I expect the same respect I give my customers.
Business is business,
PRO
Westchester Design Center Inc.
hace 9 años
Well said lisadoll
dbh
hace 9 años
Love your post, Lisadoll. I'm certainly not an intimidating woman-- but I do have good strong opinions and a voice. (I do not end my sentences on an uplift/question.) Before any renovation, I know what I want beforehand, and I've also done my research. I just think you can't be at all tentative or come across unsure or diffident in any way. I mean, I'll ask a contractor's opinion, because they're in the business and have some good knowledge to share-- but I also know when I'm being subjected to BS. And, really, maybe we've just been fortunate (having undergone too many renovated bathrooms and kitchens for one lifetime), but to get the kind of skilled workers/contractors/tilers you can trust might take nearly a lifetime. We still employ the tiler we used in our very first kitchen & bathroom renovation in a Victorian we owned-- and that was 25 years ago. Many of the good people we now use have been recommended to us by him-- people he's worked with and knows the quality of their work. Word-of-mouth is valuable, whether you're in a small town or a large city. And sometimes (not always) it might be easier to get good work done if you're living in a more metropolitan area (more competition, so only the good ones manage to stay and remain in business for the long haul).

More than that, though, doing your research ahead of time and knowing what CAN go wrong-- and being able to voice that clearly (ie, "This is what I don't want to see . . . ") gets the point across that you won't stand for anything less than perfection. :)

Oh-- and in my house, contractors do not voice their screw-ups (and we haven't really had in any a long long time) to me first. They just don't. :)

This is an interesting topic and surely deserves its own thread. Thanks.
lovemykids
hace 9 años
Mamabear03, I find it interesting that you commented that he did not use the trim pieces you provided him with at the beginning of the install. He was provided with everything he needed to make this install happen properly. If he has not installed what you wanted properly then he needs to either redo the tile install, take the time to dig out the grout for the trim to be placed, or cut the tile to fit in. If it was me I would want it done how I wanted it in the first place. You have to live with this decision you make. Don't regret it later. Explain to him in a kind way that this is how you had it planned, would still like it that way, and that it is important to you that it be the way you had envisioned it to be. If he is so rushed to have it get done before he leaves then tell him that you would rather have him finish it when he returns so that he can fix it the way you would like it and not be rushed. Don't pay until done properly.
PRO
Cinar Interiors, Inc.
hace 9 años
Who does this builder work for? You paid for and provided materials and it's his duty to provide you with quality workmanship. If it were one of our jobs, the installer or builder would be ripping out and correcting the problem on their dime. Using a pencil liner that far down is a waste of money. If it's not in eye view up close just use the field tile to fill the gaps.
KD
hace 9 años
Lisadoll - I live with two housemates, one who is male and one who is also female but tends to be quieter and I suppose more stereotypically female when interacting with tradespeople (it isn't that she doesn't know about things, she just dislikes conflict) and it's been kind of interesting seeing how various people who come to quote for work on the house interact with the different members of the household, particularly when they're trying to sell something.

(My housemates actually own the house, but they usually ask me to sit in when people come for estimates, because it's so useful to have another opinion. Plus, often I'm the one who is most likely to be home during the day when someone might show up to actually do the work, so it is best if I get to participate in the process of making the arrangements so if the installer is someone different, I know what they're being paid to do.)
Crystal Rockwell
hace 9 años
It's his fault it wasn't done properly in the first place, NOT yours!
You supplied the trim tile pcs. and either it wasn't communicated to the person actually installing the tile or they couldn't find it. He/ tile guy can, and should remove the mastic they used as filler, which should NOT have been done, regardless of the aforementioned excuses, in the first place. Yes, it can be chipped out, CAREFULLY, as to not damage your beautiful backsplash or cabinets. Then they can install the trim pieces properly. Sounds like he doesn't want to do the extra work. Whatever you decide to do should be at HIS EXPENSE!
Lisadoll
hace 9 años
@dianahb I, agree with you wholeheartedly! Whats sooo entirely funny is that NOBODY would describe ME as a "pushover "!!! LMAO!
I myself am in the trades. I agree, referrals are best, and ENTIRELY how i built my business. Actually, my clients routinely ask ME for recommendations. Come to think of it, i cant remember having had SUCH a problem with this issue during past renovations.
I think its just this valley.. I sometimes forget, when commenting on these posts, that i live in an economic bubble ( for lack of a better description)..Expensive to live here, expensive to do business here. Many of the master tradesmen have burned out, retired, or just plain moved away, and i get that.
I miss that dedication to craft and personal sevice.
RESPECT. All Business is based on relationships.
Even psedo- relationships.. Someone made billions
Using that concept ( and HE lives here too.. See what i mean?)

PS HATS OFF TO TILE-SETTERS! THAT IS AN ART AND A SCIENCE LIKE NONE OTHER
I LOVE LOVE LOVE TILE!!!!
zaggal
hace 9 años
Let him know it will still be here to finish when he returns from vacation. Hold the payment until he returns also. You as the customer wanted a certain thing and he needs to deliver. It's not like you changed your mind after the fact. He knew what you wanted before he started.
PRO
Cottage Craft Tile
hace 9 años
If its any consolation - the tile looks beautiful. The rule of thumb with a backsplash layout is to start with a full piece at the counter and hide your cuts up under the cabinet. Your contractor could have opened up the grout joint a bit more, but in my opinion that would have looked even worse. Usually whatever that cut ends up being is what you have to go with. Your tile installer really can't control the size of the tile or the height of the cabinets, so he has to work with what he has. That being said, he definitely shouldn't have filled it in with grout. I like the wood trim idea if you can make it work.
eftr1003
hace 9 años
"Rule of thumb in tile installation is start with full tile off of countertop".... Where did you learn that? What if the countertop is not level... That throws everything else off. Never start from a full tile anywhere except when it is a tile install from the outside in with a bullnose edge. Every installation should be centered. This guy was a hack. Unfortunately the construction industry is filled with people like this and gives the rest a bad name. I'm thankful I retired. I'd freeze payment until he did it right.
soltygj
hace 9 años
Depending on your style you may want to consider either a jute rope (if your style is rustic) or perhaps some steel cable if your style is more contemporary. Either way you have a wide range of thickness, size and color.
PRO
Cure Design Group
hace 9 años
I prefer not a bull nose or rope trip here, its so clean in style, you could do a stainless trim piece, but ideally, he should cut the back splash tile to fit the space. You are the client and are paying him to do a job correctly. He needs to suck it up and make it happen.
PRO
Cure Design Group
hace 9 años
I would also add a piece of flat trip above the dead space above cabinets on the right, not sure why there arent 42" cabs there but I would crown that off or something, first thing I noticed :(
Chester Clardy
hace 9 años
I like some of the options like adding a accent - but should have accounted for that before the installation? - hold payment until it is done correct - again you are the client and if it is in writing than you have no worries - customer and Installer should have had an agreement about the tile and how it should look before the install?
have the mechanic offer some solutions or change mechanics?
chrissiekirk
hace 9 años
I think a blind man could have done a better job...this is sloppy work and it is just a shame.
leelee
hace 9 años
Sounds like you're afraid of this guy. He's the one that screwed up and you'll give him an opportunity to fix it so he'll still look good in the community. You are not the one that did anything wrong and you shouldn't pay him until he fixes the problem.
magada
hace 9 años
Wow, people sure don't bother to read up comments much.
PRO
Westchester Design Center Inc.
hace 9 años
I can't believe that this conversation is been going on for so long, I hope that the problem is been addressed by now. That is a such an easy fix, the contractor should have been there already, take the grout out, and replace the space, with the field tile cut to size. Anything else would be lost under the cabinets and no one will notice it. Not a biggy. I hope that mamabear03 will keep us updated. Thank you guys have a great weekend.
leelee
hace 9 años
An idea to remedy the problem is to remove top five rows of tile, insert a pencil tile or bullnose and put the 5 rows back. Sort of like this.
PRO
Eric Hawawinata Architects
hace 9 años
I think you can make a lamp cove for indirect lighting there. the cove can be made from the same material with the cabinet, and the same finishing system. LED strip lamp is the best choice for that.... good luck.
pantry
hace 9 años
Just because he's going on vacation, doesn't mean that he can't return and commit to weekends to remove the grout and make it right. I'm experiencing the same dilemma, in that my subway tiles will feature 1/2" of height above vanity counter, but as my friend pointed out, if you were to have tiled the wall first and then slid in the vanity, the tiles would lay out wherever they would naturally follow in line, as yours should be. In such a short space and with subway tile, the eye looks for the familiar subway tile application: a "brick" layout, all the same repetitive blocks, excluding cutesy cover-up strips. You know you'll only be happy if he does it right. Never leave a contractor alone with a design dilemma. Be on the job every time, all day. Take vacation time from work if you have to. They don't have time to wait, so you need to be there: Venus vs. Mars.
PRO
Advent Home Solutions
hace 9 años
I couldn't help but notice you mentioned "mastic" in your initial post ... A professional tile installer worth their salt would know that mastic is not recommended for marble tile (which is what it looks like from the photos). White thinset is best for marble tile. Lazy installers use mastic (under wrong circumstances) because it comes premixed in a tub. Most makes say on the container not to use for anything other than small format ceramic tile.
We always always lay out and mark where the tile will end up under cabinets, at end runs, beside appliances, etc to make sure there are no skinny cuts that are super obvious ... And if there is anything that for whatever reason cannot be avoided or would involve extra work then at least it is known before the first tile is set in place so surprises are avoided and decisions can be made when there are actually options. It's always quicker to take the time up front than battle through mistakes later. If it is grout in the gap it can be chipped out carefully and tiled properly ... If it is mastic then again that can probably be chipped out ... If it is thinset though then you're contractor is screwed (to use the technical term) as it will be extremely difficult to remove without damaging the tiles of the row below. However that is his problem to fix no matter what it takes.

We have ended up installing a narrow wood moulding twice I believe because in both cases the existing cabinets were not level, the client did not want to pay to have them reinstalled level (option 1) and the format of mosaic tile they picked could not be cut to fit the wedge shaped gap left without accentuating the off-level even more. However we knew this before installing the first tile so this became part of the design. Anyways I detract ;-)
eftr1003
hace 9 años
And thinset on drywall is a no no. But you would know that since you're a contractor right? Mastic is perfectly fine for backsplashes and small marble like the homeowner has here. The marble you speak of that is against the manufacturer recommendations for mastic is larger tile sizes from 18in and up and not recommended on flooring use. Mastic isn't used because an installer is lazy, it is used when you need a better bond and immediate hold. Thinset sags and tiles slip on walls when you use thinset. Not to mention the water in the thinset mix can affect the drywalls surface.
bygeorgi
hace 9 años
Wish there were some finished photos..... I would like to see the resolution.
PRO
Advent Home Solutions
hace 9 años
eftr1003 ...
I made no suggestion of using thinset directly on drywall. A tile backer is what I would always recommend (such as a form of concrete board or Dens-shield, etc). The mastic products available in our area clearly state in the specs that they are only for use with ceramic or porcelain tile. Perhaps you have a different mastic available there that we have not come across that states it is OK for natural stone tile. The concern with mastic use on marble is not so much of grab strength but that they can bleach through the porous natural stone and cause discolouration as mastic typically goes a yellow colour when dry. Porcelain & ceramic tiles do not have this issue.

As for thinset causing sagging ... that will often happen if the thinset consistency is not right (too runny, too dry, lumpy), or the tile isn't back-buttered, or too much / too little thinset is used. If the consistency is right and a decent quality product is used then it is pretty hard to remove a tile within seconds of it being installed. I agree it doesn't have the instant grab strength of mastic for small tile, but personally I have a mindset of just because something installs fast doesn't mean it will last. I realize others may disagree and the great thing about forums like this is we get to see a variety of opinions from difference experiences.
eftr1003
hace 9 años
In all my experience and all the homes I have had the pleasure of building, I have never seen mastic "bleach" through and discolor any stone. Ever. Are you an installer or a sales rep or decorator? Because you sound more like a decorator or designer than a contractor. I also have never seen a home built with a concrete backer board or denshield or Hardi backer used on any backsplash in a kitchen. It is usually drywall.
eftr1003
hace 9 años
Just so we understand what mastic does as far as "fast". It's not that it dries faster, it's that it holds the tile better quicker. Thinset has a dry time of 24 hours and up to 48-72 hours of cure time. Mastic holds quick. That's all I said. And if you look on your bag of thinset it should say "not meant for installation on backer board." Just FYI.
eftr1003
hace 9 años
Sorry I'm multi tasking today... :) walls vibrate and move and expand. Hard thinset is a no no with this as your tile will crack and fall off of the walls over time. Flex set sure but not thinset.
PRO
Cinar Interiors, Inc.
hace 9 años
Última modificación: hace 9 años
Nor have I ever seen mastic bleach through natural stone in my 45 yrs of experience. The only time I have seen marble discolor is when installers for slab counter tops use a glue that is a quick cure to speed up time when they are piecing together. I have seen beautiful white marbles turn green/yellow, red and brown mainly around seems or any other areas the glue was wiped on the belly of the slab.
baggie2
hace 9 años
Mamabear03, please, please hang in there for the builder to do the right thing! We had some remodeling done; hardwood in living/dining rooms; bathroom remodel (moved one wall for more space), new tile, cupboards (with same footprint as previous) and it took over 9 months to complete. We were so ready to be done with all the scheduling conflicts and get back to normal that we just let him say when HE was finished. Photos show the wall that was moved in a bedroom and how he left it. The "painter" was hired by him, but he put up the molding (? if flat piece of wood is considered "molding".). Our newly hired painter could not believe how it was "finished" so he is going to do it the right way, including the molding. Will never again use that contractor, even if he was a golfing buddy of my husband's. : )
baggie2
hace 9 años
Should add, there was wallpaper on the wall that prevented the painting of the one section above the door...not the painter's fault for that, but door casing was not wallpapered!
Magereta Williams
hace 9 años
Woaw can't believe that there are contractors like that!!
baggie2
hace 9 años
Magereta, we did some subsequent remodeling and hired a different contractor. Loved that process and the final product was exactly what we hoped for!
PRO
Westchester Design Center Inc.
hace 9 años
Great to hear
Magereta Williams
hace 9 años
That's great!
MT Hanlin
hace 9 años
A professional would cut the tile, especially if that is what you want. You don't want to be annoyed every time you look at it.
organizedsarah
hace 8 años
It's YOUR money and YOUR house...don't pay him until the job is completed to your satisfaction. Do I understand you had the pencil molding available before he even began the job? If so, it's a double whammy on his "professionalism" to have not used it. NO, it won't be "sticking out too far" because he's not just going to glue the pencil molding to the mastic that was improperly stuck in to fill in the gap...he's going to remove that mastic and install the molding properly.

Even I, a DIY grandmother, knows you measure the area and account for spacing when you do tiling, cutting tiles where they need to be cut as you go instead of doing a half-arse job and hope nobody notices. DON'T pay him in full until the job is done PROPERLY...vacation rush or no vacation rush! If he didn't have time to do a quality job before his vacation, he shouldn't have accepted the job!
PRO
TheFurnitureCollection
hace 8 años
Great advice. I did like the suggestion to install under-cabinet lighting which would cover the gap. What happened to that?
User
hace 8 años
Mamabear, When I am in a situation that frustrates, worries, or angers me for days, I ask myself if my decision will be important to me when I am on my death bed. Will I wish I had made a different decision? Will I even think about the situation at all? Of course, the answer is always "No." And that's when the agonizing stops, and I accept the simplest solution, and let go. The wood trim will look fine, and no one will ever notice. Life hands us enough stress without us stressing ourselves.
Albert Dukaj
hace 7 años
Im a tile installer if u want a very nice looking backsplash ill be more than happy to do that for you
PRO
Regency Designs
hace 2 años
Girl Please, you are correct to pitch a fit to have a job done right. This is lazy and don't give a cramp about the quality of THEIR OWN CRAFTMANSHIP! Tell them they should care about how their work is done, then the customer won't have a problem in most jobs. I literally had to take over a tile job because a guy lied and said he knew how to tile. It was my first try. I leveled everything. Calculated correctly and the bathroom looked fabulous. Maybe you need a few new contractors. Good Luck.

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HELP! Builder saying he doesn't want to put my trim tile in here. :/

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