Window Replacement: Trying to decide between two similar quotes!
Hello! Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to read this and/or provide their advice! I truly appreciate it!
My fiancee and I are in need of replacement windows, and have narrowed it down to two companies. We keep flopping back and forth, and I'm hoping I can get some direction!
Situation: 10 windows (variation of slider, picture and DH windows) and 1 sliding door. We have 2 windows and a sliding glass door with broken seals, one of which is actually starting to leak. Thus why we NEED to replace at least those 3 (the others are still drafty, allowing condensation buildup - essentially on their way out), but makes more sense to replace the whole house while we're at it. We'd normally step up from the "entry" level replacement window, but can't afford another $3-4k at this time, given our current debts, wedding coming up, etc. From the quotes we've received, the two window lines below seem to rate (NFRC.org) far better than Alside, Pella, or a few others in this price range that we've received quotes for.
Here are the details of the quotes we're deciding between:
Windows Plus of Cincinnati
- Soft-Lite Barrington windows w/366 LoE and Soft-Lite Kingsroyal sliding door for $6,500
Some notes on this quote:
- Windows Plus only uses the Super Spacer w/"neat edge" application using black butyl rubber double seal.
- Quote for the Soft-Lite Kingsroyal doesn't include premium upgrades like stainless steel dual rollers ($39 upgrade) or "ToeBolt" locking system ($30 upgrade).
- Windows Plus claims to have a lifetime warranty, however it does require screens to be dropped off for free screen service. A truly lifetime warranty (transferable once), which covers everything from screens, to hardware, to even glass breakage (not included on the Barrington, but included for free to match Windows Direct).
- Windows Plus is a family-owned private company that's been in Cincinnati since 1982. They're not a franchise and are debt free. They only use their own installers.
Windows Direct USA
- Sunrise Essentials windows w/366 LoE and Alside Promenade 6400 sliding door for $6,500
OR
- Sunrise Essentials windows w/366 LoE and Sunrise sliding door for $7,100
Some notes on this quote:
- We're told that the Sunrise Essentials includes Cardinal glass and uses the Cardinal XL Edge spacer. I can't find this anywhere on Sunrise's information and it isn't explicitly stated in Windows Direct documentation, but the Salesmen claims this. Not sure if anyone can confirm here, but I plan to reach out to Sunrise to ask directly.
- The Alside Promenade doesn't rate nearly as well as the Sunrise sliding door, and Windows Direct refuses to match the price from Windows Plus, which includes the Soft-Lite competitor/equivalent.
- Windows Direct claims they have the best lifetime warranty in the business. No hidden service charges, a truly lifetime warranty (transferable once), which covers everything from screens, to hardware, to even glass breakage.
- Windows Direct USA is a nationwide company with franchises in Cincinnati, Louisville, Lexington, etc. They use their own installers, too.
Please let me know if I've forgotten anything important! I'm hoping some of you fine members have experience with Soft-Lite or Sunrise, or even Cardinal XL Edge spacer vs Super Spacer. My main concern with the Super Spacer is the durability over time. Obviously each product bashes the other, claiming that they're better in every way, so it's hard to know what to trust.
For those of you who may be familiar with the Alside Promenade vs Sunrise sliding door, do you think it's worth the $600 upgrade to get foam filling, better bearings, triple locking system, top-hung sliding screen, etc (standard on the Sunrise door)?
Any and all feedback is welcome! Thank you again for your time!
Comentarios (60)
Jeremy Hughes
Autor originalhace 4 añosUltra Windows and Windowmaster — thanks for the input on the Soft-Lite Elements! Would you say that Soft-Lite Elements w/Super Spacer is better than Sunrise Vanguard w/Cardinal Stainless Steel spacer? What makes one stand out over the other?
PROUltra Windows
hace 4 añosI prefer SL to Sunrise, based primarily on the strength and rigidity of the frame and particularly the sill. Super Spacer vs. Cardinal SS is a toss-up for me.
Jeremy Hughes
Autor originalhace 4 añosUltra Windows - thanks for pointing out some of the things you prefer with Soft-Lite over Sunrise.
I assume it’s safe to say the same things apply to their doors (SL Kingsroyal vs Sunrise Vanguard)? I know the Sunrise Vanguard door comes with Stainless Steel ball bearings ($39 option for the SL Kingsroyal) and a 3-point locking system (vs 2 for the Kingsroyal), but to a layman the frames and foam filling seem very similar.
Jeremy Hughes
Autor originalhace 4 añosThanks, Toddinmn! Does your vote stay the same regardless of Essentials/Barrington or Vanguard/Elements? What about SuperSpacer vs Cardinal Stainless?
PROtoddinmn
hace 4 añosYes , Softlite either way.
edge to duralite in u value performance, edge to Cardinal in reliability not enough either way to change my overall opinion.
Jeremy Hughes
Autor originalhace 4 añosThanks again, toddinmn! Definitely gives me a lot to think about. I was originally giving the edge to Windows Direct and the Sunrise, but a lot of Windows pros seem to be voting for Soft-Lite.
I’m hearing more and more that the spacer isn’t enough of a difference to consider a deal maker or breaker, so I think it’s ultimately going to come down to price. Sounds like if the price is matched, I should give the edge to Soft-Lite, at which point it’s just deciding whether or not it’s worth ~$1,000 to upgrade to Soft-Lite Elements over the Barrington. Decisions, decisions..
- PRO
toddinmn
hace 4 añosThe upgrade price is very fair.
I think you can get a stainless spacer with Soft-Lite, I’d put more thought into the correct glass package than The spacer.
Jeremy Hughes
Autor originalhace 4 años@toddinmn - Windows Plus only offers the Super Spacer. Windows Plus is known for their “free triple pane upgrade”, so I think it’s a matter of seeing which triple pane option they quoted. I’ll give my salesman a call and ask! Thanks!
Kelli Snyder
hace 4 añosÚltima modificación: hace 4 añosHi Jeremy, glad I stumbled onto this forum! I too am in the market for replacement windows in the Cincy area. I too have had a quote from WP with Barrington and Elements. We need roughly 11 front windows and a patio door to start. Cost is a factor for us as well and like most, I would like a decent product that I can expect 20 years out of with a reliable warranty and not have to sacrifice my children’s college education to pay for it!
A couple of things; have you checked out other companies in the area, such as Window World, Champion, or Gilkey? I keep seeing a lot of my neighbors touting Gilkey on sites such as next door, but not sure if they are real people or fake accounts made by salespeople. Furthermore, a friend of mine whose husband is a contractor, recommended Window World, but I think they carrier Alside, MI and Windcore products which I have read in blogs are not great quality.
After having spent most of the last 2 days researching (and 2 in home sales pitches), I continually see Soft lite being recommended and am becoming more comfortable with that brand. However, from what I understand, they are a fairly new company. What makes me nervous about them is that they may succumb to the same fate as Gurell did a few years ago. Apparently Gurell was the “darling” of the window industry and then one day, they filed bankruptcy and are now out of business. Therefore, those with a lifetime warranty from Gurell are essentially, out of luck. I suppose what I’m asking is it worth it to spend more on a more established manufacturer, but maybe not get as good a quality?
Lastly, my concern with Windows Plus is that they are a middle man for the manufacturer, if the decide to stop carrying Soft-Lite, would we be out of luck trying to have warranty issues resolved? Or if the 2 business owners decide in 10 years they want to retire and sell the business? My sales rep, when he came, did not mention that we must bring the screens in to have them serviced to maintain the warranty, what a bummer! Funny, I was quoted $6,932 for 11 windows, (1 being a picture window, but from what I understand, should not be that significant in price difference from my other windows). You were offered 10 windows and a sliding glass door for $400 less, crazy!
PROHomeSealed Exteriors, LLC
hace 4 años@Jeremy Hughes, you have a couple very good product choices, and it appears to be good, reputable companies as well. As I mentioned on the other site, I know firsthand that WIndows Direct does very good work and is very reputable, however it sounds like the other company is pretty reputable as well, and the Elements window is certainly a top performer. I don't think that you will go wrong here as long as you choose either the Elements or Vanguard/Restorations, but I'll reiterate my "homer" vote for Windows Direct.
@Kelli Snyder, Softlite is not a new company at all and in fact was recently bought out by a holding company and became part of Harvey Building products. Gorell made some nice windows, but despite what you've read (they were also in business for many years), their downfall was due to extremely high labor costs which ultimately hamstrung their ability to remain competitive in various areas. Without making this a political discussion or arguing for or against their merits, they were a union based shop in a largely non-union industry and couldn't keep up in the end. The discussion/narrative about them being a "small manufacturer" and that they and other "small" manufacturers could meet a similar fate using Gorell as an example is a bit misguided in my opinion, and often promoted by companies that carry products from conglomerate manufacturers that supply an entire suite of exterior products such as AMI (Alside) and Plygem. Calling a $50-$70 million dollar manufacturer (top 100 manufacturers in the US out of thousands) a "small" company is really not accurate and is a way to attempt to discredit the fact that these window manufacturers generally produce a product with superior performance and quality. In other words, there is some salesmanship involved, just as there is in 90% of anything that you hear in this industry.... Also to answer your question about warranties, yes your warranty would be valid if your installer went out of business. Another dealer would service it for you. "Middle man" has a negative connotation, the other way to look at it would be "specialist" in installation. Your favorite restaurant does not raise its own livestock or grow its own vegetables, your mechanic does not manufacture the parts, and so on.Jeremy Hughes
Autor originalhace 4 añosHey, Kelli! Glad to see there are some other NKY/Cincinnati area window shoppers out there with similar dilemmas to me! Sounds like we’re after the same things, so maybe we can help each other find the best deal out there!
We have not gotten quotes from Window World, Champion or Gilkey. I have been told by numerous people to avoid Window World due to their lower quality windows and questionable installation. The few sites I saw reviews on them seemed to back that up. I’ve heard that Champion is one of the more expensive options out there, and that the price for the window they sell isn’t worth it. Gilkey was one that we hadn’t thought of before I reached out (after checking out Angie’s List), but based on another company’s comparison sheet, it doesn’t seem like they sell as good of a window (when I get home I can share the comparisons I’ve received). I can say that from everything I’ve read and researched about Alside, it’s a middle-of-the-road option out there, so I’ve been trying to avoid them, where possible. As you’ve seen on here (and will see on other replacement-window forums if you search — I have the same post on a few others I’d be happy to send you links to), most people don’t recommend Alside.
As for the warranties, this is always a concern. It seems that regardless of the industry, companies always try to find a way to wiggle out of warranty claims. This is why I’ve been leaning heavily on reviews, and reading the fine details of their warranty process. I can say that both Sunrise and Soft-Lite (and Cardinal Glass) have their own warranties, so even if the installer goes out of business, we should be able to claim a warranty directly with those manufacturers. Don’t quote me on that — still researching this myself, but if you look on their sites, they clearly advertise their warranties. Who knows if they’d try to wiggle out of honoring the warranty and blame poor installation or whatever, but worth looking into. Again, this is why we’re heavily considering a quality window now, in hopes that we’ll never have to worry about warranty claims. Quality product and quality installation should set us up pretty well for that.
From what I can find on Soft-Lite, they’ve actually been around since 1934 and have been making vinyl windows since 1953. To me, 65+ years in the business is more than enough to show me that they make a quality product and have stood the test of time!
As for Windows Plus, the owners are “second generation”, so I would hope they’d have some pride in the business to hopefully pass it on to family or at least keep the business alive moving forward. They are family owned and operated, so there’s always that risk that they’d close shop out of nowhere, but it doesn’t sound like that’s a huge threat. My WP salesman shared with me that they’re debt-free, also, so that shows me that it’s a financially responsible company that isn’t outgrowing its britches.
Sounds like your quote should be similar to mine. When you say the “patio door”, do you mean a standard door that swings open, or a sliding glass door like ours? Just curious if that’s included in your quotes or not, so we can better compare apples to apples. Our quote initially came in at ~$6,800 but our salesman came down to $6,500 when I told him we were getting less expensive quotes from competitors.
Let me know if you reach out to Gilkey or another company that you have luck with! I’ll do the same!
Jeremy Hughes
Autor originalhace 4 años@HomeSealed Exteriors, LLC Thanks for yet another very informative reply! For us non-pros out here, it can be a bit overwhelming trying to weed through the misinformation to find the truth!
I'm hoping that we can stretch our budget to afford the Vanguard or the Elements, but we'll see! Thanks again for the info!Jeremy Hughes
Autor originalhace 4 años@Kelli Snyder - I can confirm what @HomeSealed Exteriors, LLC states about the window manufacturers honoring warranty claims even if the dealer is no longer in business. I just called Sunrise Windows to verify which spacer, exactly, they use in their windows (my salesman wasn't sure) and they have two menu options for warranties - one if your dealer is still in business, and one if your dealer is not in business! So that helps with some of that worry, at least :)
Jeremy Hughes
Autor originalhace 4 años@Kelli Snyder - here’s the table that compares different windows in the area. Obviously this is only one window from each manufacturer (other than Sunrise), so be sure to compare similar windows before moving forward. You can use this table to help compare to the Soft-Lite windows using their brochure, or by going to NFRC.org
The other pros can correct me if I’m wrong, but there doesn’t seem to be a very good reception re: drain holes in the window. Also, the “intercept” seal doesn’t get rave reviews, especially in aluminum (some places also offer “Stainless Steel Intercept”, which I hear is simply Stainless Steel plated, not true Stainless Steel (makes a HUGE difference in conductance, which largely affects condensation ratings, among others).
Looking back at Angie’s List, Champion gets “B” ratings across the board, while Gilkey gets an overall “A” rating, but a “B” in pricing. That’s likely why I didn’t reach out to either, at first.
One last thing to note about the table - it reveals that not all warranties are the same. Be sure to ask about the fine print, whether or not it’s transferable (and any hidden fees with that), and especially service fees. According to my Windows Plus salesman, there are ONLY service fees if they have to come out to collect your screens for repair or replacement (you can take them into their warehouse for repair for free), which is $60. They also don’t include glass breakage warranty on the Barrington series - that is an extra (“small”) fee, or they’ll match another company that includes it in their price.
Hope that helps!
Kelli Snyder
hace 4 añosThank you @HomeSealed Exteriors, LLC! Jeremy is absolutely correct, there is so much misinformation out there and I am getting lost in all the blogs and such. When that was mentioned, it became a very real concern, as you can imagine! That is very reassuring that Soft lite has been around for several years, as they are still at the top of my list!
If I may, what are your thoughts on the Alside mezzo? While I have read Alside is a middle of the road window, people In other forums seem to really like the Mezzo. Apples to apples if you had a choice of Alside Mezzo, SL Barrington or Elements, or the Vanguard, (which I haven’t researched, but will absolutely borrow Jeremy ‘s recommendation on that), which would you suggest? Lastly, (sorry) thoughts on Advantage by Simonton 6100 & 6500 series from Home Depot? I know, Home Depot, yikes, but I have heard Simonton makes a decent product. They were a bit more expensive, but not sure they are worth the extra cost. Thank you!
@Jeremy Hughes I talked with RWT today, which is an Angie’s list favorite. I asked them which windows they carried and the only one of interest to me was the Alside Mezzo. Rough ballpark quote with the info I gave him was $450-$500/window. Roughly $5000 without the picture window, which is on the second floor. I’m thinking with the pic window, it would potentially come in close to $6500, which would put me close to your quote for the Barrington. I asked if they were similar (mezzo & Barrington) and he said yes. He did say that his installers are not contracted and I’m not sure that makes a difference? If there is 1 thing I have learned is that a decent quality window installed with expert craftsmanship can last for years, but the most expensive, poorly installed, can spell trouble.
Also, we had Home Depot come out tonight because,quite frankly, my husband is at the point of wanting to do it himself! Now, the HD rep showed us the Advantage Simonton 6500 &6100, with the 6100 coming in around $9500 and the 6500 around$11,000. Of course they look fantastic and they have all the stuff we look for; great warranty, ,solid product, etc. He was very upfront about the labor cost of our pic window being high because it is a big window and on the second floor, but our Quote from WP for all 10 plus the pic window in the Elements was $8,682 & $6932 in the Barrington. (Of course, I’m hoping to get that down a bit since reading this thread!) lastly, I did not have WP price the door, my husband added that on when we had RBA out on Sunday, (who quoted us $40,000 for the 10 windows, pic window & patio door!!!! No thank you!!!)Jeremy Hughes
Autor originalhace 4 años@Kelli Snyder I actually just got off the phone with my Windows Plus salesman, and he's actually come down a little more on the price. He's convinced my fiancee and I to head out to their showroom to take a look at each of the windows in-person to help us decide which we'd like to go with, and check out the aesthetics of the Elements (while "premium", apparently not for everyone). It seems that Windows Direct is struggling to match or come close to the Windows Plus pricing for the Elements, even at their Vanguard series (from my understanding, the Vanguard is the mid-tier Sunrise window (Restorations being the top-tier) vs the Elements being the top-tier window by Soft-Lite, so better window for less money seems like an obvious win to me).
I'm sure these pros can speak much more to the Alside Mezzo, but literally every single comparison site, forum post, and review site always sides on the Sunrise, Soft-Lite or Okna over the Alside. Doesn't leave a good impression for Alside, in my mind. My research into them actually helped me eliminate an Alside quote from another local dealer.
I haven't spoken to RWT, but I will note that both Windows Plus and Windows Direct also do not use contractors; they only use their own installers which are sent to the manufacturers each year for updated training on installation techniques, materials to use, mounting points, etc. So that doesn't set them apart from the others.
Meanwhile, I would be willing to bet that Home Depot uses sub-contractors, which as you alluded to is a big "no-no" according to literally anyone I've spoken to or read replies from. While the window itself may be fabulous (I find hard to believe, since nobody really mentions them among the "best windows in the business"), if the installation is poor, it doesn't matter (like you said). At that price, I'd certainly save my money and go with the Soft-Lite Elements, instead. The SL Elements is constantly listed as a "top-3 window, period" from any windows expert from every forum post I've read so far.
Not sure if you're a numbers type of person, but leveraging the NFRC.org ratings has really helped me with ensuring that I'm getting the best quality window. If it's rated well, the manufacturer will be proud to advertise their ratings in their brochures, at which point you can easily compare (similar to the table I sent earlier). I have yet to see a window that beats the SL Elements' ratings (we don't appear to have an Okna dealer in Cincinnati, although I have reached out to Okna to verify. Nearest appears to be Louisville.), although I hear the Okna 800 is competitive. Be sure to also check brochures for "Air Infiltration" ratings, which isn't readily available on NFRC.org like the other ratings, at least that I could find.
We had a similar "NO THANK YOU!" moment when we had ImproveIt! out for a (2-hour -_-) sales pitch. They came in at $20,000, and we were a bit shocked.
Unless some compelling window/installer pops up, I think we're heavily leaning toward going with Windows Plus and their SL Elements windows ("free triple pane upgrade") + the SL Kingsroyal premium sliding glass door for ~$7,500. Windows Direct hasn't given me an update since Friday, so they're slowly fading from the picture at this point (which is sad, because they were the early favorite).
Here are the quotes to my other forum posts, where you can find some other useful info. I'd also recommend checking out other forums, comparison sites and review sites (Google has plenty to offer, as do forums like these):- PRO
HomeSealed Exteriors, LLC
hace 4 añosWow, you guys pack a lot of questions/thoughts into these posts! LOL...
-The Softlite Elements is a tremendous window, and the Sunrise Restorations/Vanguard are very good as well. The Elements boats slightly better ratings and is more stout. The Sunrise has a little more glass area and is very attractive. I prefer the Sunrise casement and sliding door, but I prefer the Elements double hung and slider window. All that said, you really won't go wrong with either choice on product alone. For the record I don't sell or install either and in fact I compete with them, but they are very good products.- Box stores are not a great source for window projects IMO. Middling products at best, and in my experience they pay their installers a fraction of what other companies pay, which can and should be translated to quality of the finished product IMO. Most of the positive comments on Simonton pertain to west coast installations where they do not have access to superior performers that are preferred for colder midwestern and northereastern climates. Its not a bad window, don't get me wrong, and compared to the other products one can find in big orange and big blue it is as good as it gets, but its not a top tier performer.
-Back to the labor part, the vast majority of exterior remodelers use 1099 labor/subs at least in part. This is a scare tactic more than anything. Most good companies use both and could accommodate a request for an employee crew, however the best thing that you can do is pick a company with a reputation for quality installation that will stand by it. Joe the employee installer and Jeff the 1099 installer may both be gone 5 years from now, and the company that you contracted is the one that warranties that install and stands behind it. Having been an installer myself early on, I chose only to subcontract work because I could make significantly more money that way. Once again, much like the big boxes (and throw window world type companies in there as well), just follow the money. That is where the best installers go just like any other industry. Also keep in mind that this isn't "general contracting" where the GC gets bids from sub A, B, and C, and simply chooses the lowest bid. These are long term term, continuous relationships in this niche industry. Personally I prefer to assign an installer based on his qualifications for a particular project as opposed to how Uncle Sam gets paid, but again, many companies will accommodate the request if made.
-Alside, much like simonton does not make terrible windows for the most part. They are a very large manufacturer however, and top level quality and performance are usually not at the top of their list of priorities in my experience. Bargain type companies commonly carry it as its easily accessible and cost effective.
Jeremy Hughes
Autor originalhace 4 añosHaha you’ve definitely got two research-driven consumers on your hands, @HomeSealed (idk why I can’t tag the same way on the app)!
Thanks again for the great info! I’m sure Kelli appreciates it as much as I do!
Glad to have more reinforcement on not going wrong with SL Elements or Sunrise Restorations/Vanguard, because I think we’ve decided it’s worth the extra ~$1,000 for the big step up in quality. It seems the clear edge goes to the SL Elements if they’re in the same price range, which at this moment they are (still haven’t heard back on a quote for the Vanguard, which tells me they probably aren’t able to even match the quote I’ve received for the SL Elements. Not to mention Windows Plus has a “free triple pane upgrade” on the SL Elements, separating them even more from the double-pane Vanguard).
Sounds like Windows Plus focuses on quality installers, and apparently has 6 full-time crews (just stating the info provided - can’t speak to whether or not that’s normal or not for a company their size) that work year-round for them and are well trained annually. I’m not sure if there’s anything more I can ask, in regards to the quality of their installers?
From my experience with Lowe’s and research on the product they were quoting and the quality of installation, I would have to agree with your summary of their products + installation quality. We were attracted to them initially for their low price, but like with most things - you get what you pay for. It was pretty simple to cross them off our list.
Kelli Snyder
hace 4 años@Jeremy Hughes & Homesealed,
I cannot thank y’all enough for the tips, advice and help!! I am going to give Windows Direct a call and set something up with them so that I can check out the Vanguard. I’m hoping to get the pricing to be more competitive from WP as well. Y’all have given me a lot of hope that all is not lost in the world of Windows! Yesterday, I was literally mired in info and charts that I really could not read, just to make sure I wasn’t being sold a Kia for the price of a Cadillac! I am so much more confident and comfortable with not only the product, but the warranty info, companies, and price point. It’s a little early to decide which I’ll go with, but confident in either Windows Plus or Windows Direct. THANK YOU!!
Jeremy Hughes
Autor originalhace 4 añosSounds like we’ve both narrowed it down to the same two installers! Still waiting to hear back from Windows Direct regarding their best price on the Vanguard, which is starting to get bothersome to me.
Btw, I heard back on my inquiry with OKNA, and their nearest dealer is the one in Louisville. Something about having an installer 90+ minutes away is something I’m not a fan of, especially for no added benefit over the Soft-Lite Elements.
Let me know if you start leaning one way or the other! I’ll be interested to see what happens!
- PRO
HomeSealed Exteriors, LLC
hace 4 añosÚltima modificación: hace 4 añosSounds like a plan Jeremy, I think you are on the right track. The Okna window is great as well as it hits the best numbers, but also with more glass. Obviously the distance is a drawback though, its nice to have a company nearby to service you.
My last piece of advice here assuming that you don't have any questions is to focus in on the company that you feel will serve you better and deliver a better installation, as installation and service thereafter are the VAST majority of complaints when it comes to windows. Far more than on the product itself. I know that Chris @ Windows Direct runs a tight ship, but the reviews on the other guys seem good too. Only red flag I see there is per your description they claim to have been in business for decades, but their BBB listing says they started in 2009. Possibly some change in ownership or "reorganization" or something, not sure. May or may not be anything to be concerned about, although the inconsistency between that and what you are told is reason to look a little deeper IMO... Whether this particular thing ends up being anything to worry about, I'd say a deeper dive into the company that you'd be doing business with is is probably best to decide this one way or the other since the other stuff all appears to be comparable.
Jeremy Hughes
Autor originalhace 4 años@HomeSealed Exteriors, LLC Thanks again for the great insights!
I'm not sure how BBB accreditation/listing works, but I see the same thing you saw. Their "About" page does claim they've been in business since 1982, so I'll be sure to ask about the discrepancy between the two. Based on their "Meet Us" video, they "decided several years back" to start offering doors, gutters and siding as well, so perhaps at that time they re-branded to "Windows Plus"? This article states that the new owners took over in 2010, which also aligns with their BBB listing, so that tends to support the theory. Just my first guess, anyway, but will be sure to ask! Thanks!
Just for comparison, Windows Direct has only been accredited and in business for 6 years, according to BBB. They seem to gather a lot of respect, regardless of their relatively young business, so that goes to show age isn't everything.
Sadly, Windows Direct respectively bowed out of the competition last night. My salesman stated that they weren't able to compete with the price quoted by Windows Plus, even in their Vanguard series, which is their middle tier line (vs top tier line for SL Elements). I was sorry to hear that, but appreciated their honesty. At the prices quoted, it simply doesn't make financial sense for us to go with Windows Direct for $400 less to get a line of windows literally none of you pros have recommended. The $400 extra for a far better window seems like the obvious choice, given that my research on Windows Plus doesn't uncover any skeletons in their closet.
I did still have one major follow-up question for you (and anyone else who has advice!): What, exactly, should I be asking to make sure that I'll get quality installation? Are there certain techniques or installation materials I should be asking about, or at least listening for to show that they know what they're doing? I've heard some of you pros on other forums suggest asking for recent references in the area to drive by and/or contact to see how the installation went, if they're happy with their installs, etc. Seems a little intrusive to me, but if that's a usual practice, I'm more than happy to do so. We've scheduled a meeting with the salesman at their showroom this Saturday to check out the full-size products in-person, so I can ask more questions then!
Other questions I've already asked and research I've done on Windows Plus include:- Asking about their installation procedures. According to my salesman, they have an Installation Director that is at every job every day, and always inspects the job before any work is begun and after every job is completed (I believe he said that he's the one who does the final measurements as well, but I can't recall for sure). Tuesday-Thursday the owners travel to the job to inspect and speak with the owners, as well.
- Installers only work for them and are sent annually to the Soft-Lite plans to be re-certified over 2 days worth of training. All of their installers are required to go through this training before they're sent on any jobs.
- Lifetime warranty is non-prorated and is fully transferable, and includes all labor, parts, and even glass breakage. There are no "hidden fees" or "service call fees", except for screen repair, in which case they offer either a $60 pick-up/drop-off fee, or you can drop the screens off at their location for repair any time for free.
- The current glass packages included in the quote are double-pane LoE Plus ("366 LoE equivalent") with Argon fill for the sliding door, and triple-pane "Ultra-S Glass" ("366 LoE equivalent") with Argon fill for the windows.
- From my understanding, only "the best installers" are chosen by Soft-Lite to be able to purchase and install the Elements line, which bodes well for them.
- Angie's List "A" rating and "Super Service Award", BBB's A+ Rating, GuildQuality Guildmember with a 4.9 star survey average, Google Reviews - 4.6 star rating, etc.
I plan on asking about any fees re: removal of our blinds and/or blind mounts before the installers arrive, and getting their paperwork to read over any other fine print there may be. Our salesman has been very forthcoming and super helpful with answering questions, so I don't foresee any issues getting the additional info we're hoping to get on Saturday! Hopefully after that (and potentially speaking with the references, if you guys recommend that) we'll have a sale!
Kelli Snyder
hace 4 añosHi All-
Just a quick update. My husband was very impressed with the Sunrise Restorations window. we were offered $7500 for:
9 Restoration Windows with grid, including the picture window.
2 Vanguard with grid for our garage as we never open, close or have any use for them.
Now, we have 3 business days to decide. We have Windows Plus coming out again on Monday. I really want my husband to get his hands on that window and compare the Elements to what we have been offered by Windows Direct. Also, the pricing would have to be much more competitive as we have initially been offered $8682 for 10 Windows + picture window in Elements from WP.
Thoughts on Windows Direct offer? Thoughts on what we can expect from Windows Plus and SL Elements? Thanks!@Jeremy Hughes, our patio door has a transom above and is one whole piece and would be a custom door, so Windows Direct said the picture window would be cheaper. I guess the patio door will have to wait til next year.
Jeremy Hughes
Autor originalhace 4 años@Kelli Snyder -- I'd be very wary of "this deal is only good for 3 business days". Any time there's a time constraint on an offer, there's good reason for pause. Especially considering Windows Direct specifically claims all offers are good for a year. Might be a sales tactic that particular salesman is using, but I wouldn't be bullied into a decision like that.
From my experience, Windows Plus is more than willing to match pricing, as long as it's apples-to-apples comparison (Restorations-to-Elements, in your example). Sadly it wasn't the other way around for Windows Direct, which made the decision clear for us. It's good that you're getting WP back out there to do a direct comparison between the two, so you can decide what is best for you and your husband! From my understanding, the Sunrise Restorations and Soft-Lite Elements are direct competitors, very similarly rated by NFRC and it largely comes down to preference of aesthetics, if they're the same price. Hopefully one stands out!- PRO
HomeSealed Exteriors, LLC
hace 4 añosÚltima modificación: hace 4 años@Jeremy Hughes, on the installs, the reviews and reputation should speak loudly. It doesn't hurt to ask for some references and/or addresses though. Both the Softlit Elements and Sunrise Restorations are indeed the top tier, "exclusive" products from each respective manufacturer, so that should speak to the quality of each company as well.
@Kelli Snyder, that deal sounds very reasonable. Both of the products that are being discussed in this thread typically sell for a bit more than the prices that you and @Jeremy Hughes are discussing in this thread. Its safe to say that neither of you are going to "pay too much" either way. Perhaps labor is cheaper in your neck of the woods for some reason, frankly the lower prices from WP don't even sound very sustainable to me. It is the "off season" though, so there's not a much better time of year to get a good deal.
Jeremy Hughes agradeció a HomeSealed Exteriors, LLC Kelli Snyder
hace 4 añosHi All-
Ok, I was just quoted $8132 for 10 Windows and the picture window in the SL Elements and was told this is the best WP can do. I did state that we were offered $7500 from WD for the 9 Restoration Windows (picture window included) and 2 Vanguard( for the garage). Obviously the price at WD is much more palatable, but is the SL Elements worth the additional $600? My husband really prefers the Restorations because it uses a block and tackle system for opening vs. the metal coil that Elements uses. Also, he preferred the stainless steel spacer in the Restoration.
Now, WP said they could match the $7500, but would have to put us into a Provia Endure window to match that price.
I think we will stick with the Restoration quote, but wanted to get a few final thoughts before we commit. Thanks Everyone!!
Jeremy Hughes
Autor originalhace 4 añosHey, Kelli! One thing I would note is that your WP quote includes 11 “top-tier” windows, versus 9 “top-tier” plus 2 “middle-tier” windows from WD. I know you said you don’t really care that much about the garage windows, but that could help explain some of the difference in price. I would see if WP’s $7,500 match would be 9 Elements and 2 Provia Endure to be a true “apples to apples” comparison, at least considering the window line/“tier”.
Next, I would compare the glass packages between the two. I’d be willing to bet that the WP Elements windows are the triple-pane “Ultra-S” glass package, with the “366 LoE” equivalent from Windows Direct. WD May have quoted you a double pane glass package, perhaps even with the lower value (iirc “270”?) LoE coating. This will make a difference in the NFRC values (all available in their corresponding brochures or on NFRC.org). Again - just make sure you’re comparing apples-to-apples.
As for the block and tackle vs (“Teflon Coated”) metal coil Constant Force/Balance system - I’ve heard it really doesn’t make that big of a difference in quality. Supposedly the SoftLite’s system has a higher pressure, meaning the windows are easier to open. They’re both covered by lifetime warranty, so durability doesn’t matter as much, either.
As for the Stainless Steel Spacer vs the Super Spacer, the numbers don’t lie. Super Spacer has better condensation ratings (rubber foam doesn’t have the conductivity that even true Stainless Steel does, so there’s more heat transfer through the Stainless Steel spacer). I’ve seen claims by both that they last longer than the other in the P-1 test, so not sure who to believe there. As you may have seen on this forum and the others I linked - they’re both tested systems applied by reputable companies, so it shouldn’t be part of the decision. Again, both are covered by lifetime warranty, anyway, so shouldn’t matter in the long run.
I think you’ll find that it will come down to personal preference, even if they match price. For me, Windows Direct made it an easy choice since they wouldn’t even quote me a price for the Vanguard, meaning they couldn’t even come close on their “mid tier” vs WP’s “top tier”. You may have a similar case!
Again, I’d just emphasize to ensure you’re comparing apples to apples, and that you’re comparing the right things.
Jeremy Hughes
Autor originalhace 4 años@Kelli Snyder - not sure why the mobile app won't let me tag, so tagging you here in case you don't get notifications otherwise.
Kelli Snyder
hace 4 añosOur Windows now have the metal coil and have just broken apart. That is one of the things my husband was looking for when we started shopping windows. (Mechanical engineer!) Also, we have small cracks in the spacer we have now which, apparently, is comparable to the super spacer. I think that’s why he was leaning towards the metal spacer in the Restorations. The glass in the Restorations will be the R5 Indium, not sure how that stacks up to SL Elements, but our salesman didn’t seem to think that Restorations was even in the same category as Elements. The price to upgrade the garage windows to the Restorations is only $80/window, so to compare, the Elements for all 11 would come down to an additional $440.
One of the things I am concerned about is this DP rating. The Elements has a DP of 70 and I’m not sure what Restorations has. Should the DP be a factor when choosing windows? Is this indicative of a better quality window and therefore less likely to need replacing in 8-10 years? I have not heard nor read anything on DP as it doesn’t seem to be suggested as one of the factors to look for when choosing a window, yet it is pushed significantly from WP. According to my salesman, a window with such a high rating will last forever!!
Of course the Elements window‘s other numbers come in slightly better, but the VT is only 40 and I would like to be able to see out of it. Furthermore, I am not sure we really need the added bulk of a triple pane window. We don't live in a noisy area and our weather is rarely extreme. Would y’all say triple pane is the better choice and therefore worth the additional $440?
I am really torn! Both windows seem great, but I am terrified that I may have to replace the windows in 8-10 years and for some crazy loophole, my warranty is useless Is the Elements that much better a window and worth the price increase?Windowmaster
hace 4 añosÚltima modificación: hace 4 añosThe VT rating is always lower when you jump to triple pane. That said, you still get plenty of light and can easily see out the window. That should be a non issue. Yes, the higher the DP rating the better. you want 45 or higher in my opinion.
both restorations and elements will have solid dp ratings and either will last MUCH longer than 8-10 years. are you kidding me !!!
jeremy, you have 2 solid windows and heard multiple opinions. You are completely over analyzing things. you asked every possible question imaginable and are on multiple websites asking the same questions.. Just choose a window already, you are probably driving these companies crazy. Be careful they dont walk away from the deals. I have seen that happen.
fridge2020
hace 4 añosBlock and tackle > constant force
super Spacer > stainless
DP is important, both are good here
these are both 30+ year windows. Pick the one that you like better.- PRO
HomeSealed Exteriors, LLC
hace 4 añosOnce again, I think you guys have a couple great choices here. The products are good choices without a doubt. Like the others have said, 30+ years no problem. The only real variable is the install company, so pick the one that you feel is more qualified and trustworthy. A few hundred bucks is peanuts over 30 years, don't let that be the determining factor here. I suppose if you view them equally then sure, but if you like one company over the other, go that route period. Kudos to both of you for narrowing down to what seems to be a couple very good choices, now its time for the rubber to hit the road. Go with your gut.
Kelli Snyder
hace 4 años@Jeremy Hughes, yes, yes and yes! It is so hard muddling through all the sales/scare tactics, misinformation, and different jargon. I was really hung up on this DP factor this morning, even though my husband was no questions positive that the Restorations window was the best for us.
The Restorations has a DP of 30 for its’ Dbl hung & 70 for the picture window. In the end, I decided tha the problems we have most with our windows now, which are builder grade, probably DP 15-20, is that we have broken coil mechanisms and cracked rubber spacers. The DP doesn’t seem to be a factor with our windows now and they’re 20 years old. So, with all that said, Windows Direct/Sunrise won our business. Here’s hoping we have a great installation crew and hopefully can update this post in a few years with glowing reviews for future window researchers!! Thanks everyone for all of your input and advice in helping Jeremy and myself find our way out of this veritable jungle of window replacement!!!
Jeremy Hughes
Autor originalhace 4 añosKelli - glad to hear you and your husband have made a decision and have great peace of mind going into such a big investment! That’s worth more than anything!
Based on all the research we’ve done and the feedback we’ve received, it seems that we’ll both be very happy with our results! I think both Windows Plus/Soft-Lite and Windows Direct/Sunrise offer a great product, so let’s hope they walk the walk as well as they talk the talk! Best of luck!
oberon476
hace 4 añosÚltima modificación: hace 4 añosEnjoyed this thread a lot. Lots of good solid information.
In the interest of adding a bit more to the technical mix, I am resurrecting some old words that I posted more than a few times (here and elsewhere) a long time ago.
I did shorten it a bit and hopefully made it more readable...
The DP rating of a window or door is based on laboratory pressure testing in pounds per square foot or psf.
Design Pressure is part of the three-part air, water, structural test that determines much about a window's overall performance. Air infiltration is the first phase, water penetration is next, and structural is the third part of the test.
Windows are tested for air infiltration simulating a 25mph wind (1.56PSF pressure loading), and is independent of DP, while water infiltration and structural are based on the window design pressure. Water infiltration is tested at 15% and structural is tested at 150% of DP rating.
For example, a window with a DP30 is tested for water infiltration at 4.5psf (or 15% of 30psf) while a window with a DP40 is tested at 6psf (or 15% of 40psf); which also means that a window rated DP30 has been tested to simulate rain when its driven by 42mph winds and a window with a DP40 has been tested to simulate rain when driven by 49mph winds
Since DP is independent of air infiltration, as mentioned there is nothing in the structural (DP) rating that specifically requires that the unit be airtight, it’s entirely possible to have a great DP rating but lousy air infiltration performance.
A window can leak air like a sieve and still achieve an excellent DP rating. Conversely, a window that seals tightly can have a lower DP rating but excellent air infiltration numbers. As a rule, I would anticipate that most quality units will have both excellent air infiltration numbers and a satisfactory DP rating (relating to both structural strength and water infiltration), but just keep in mind that a high DP does not guarantee that a window is going to be air tight to that same level.
Since the ratios of the design pressure in psf are the square of the ratios of the wind-speed in mph, it’s relatively easy to calculate the equivalent windspeed performance (if so inclined) from the design pressure rating.
A window with a DP30 is rated to a pressure level equivalent of about 110mph windspeed, but it is tested (for structural) at a pressure equivalent to 164mph.
A window with a DP40 is rated to a pressure level equivalent to a 127mph windspeed, but it is tested (for structural) at a pressure equivalent to 190mph.
If you are curious about calculating the numbers yourself, I am including a couple of simple formulas that I developed at the request of a large (unnamed) window company many years ago that will allow you to do so. While not engineering precise, they are within a couple mph:
If wind-speed is known, then: (windspeed / 20) ^2 = DP in psf
If Design Pressure is known, then: SQRT (psf) * 20 = wind-speed in mph
Jeremy Hughes agradeció a oberon476
PROWindows Direct USA of Cincinnati
hace 4 añosKelli, thank you for your business. I promise you be satisfied with the installation and we will be here in the unlikely event you ever need service. Your our favorite type of customer. One that is educated and care about quality, we have that exact same mentality!
Chris -- PRO
Windows Direct USA of Cincinnati
hace 4 añosJeremy, I’m sorry we couldn’t earn your business. I feel very strongly about the quality of our product and with our onsite inspectors, and my quest for perfect installs I know you’d be happy with the installation. The window you chose is a nice product and I’m sure will service you well. I always speak to the owner Rick when I see him at home shows, they are some nice guys. Good luck with your project.
Jeremy Hughes
Autor originalhace 4 añosThanks, Chris! Needless to say, I was disappointed to hear from Brandon that you guys couldn’t compete with the price quoted by Windows Plus. As you can see on here (and the other posts), I thought highly of your product, business and Brandon! Glad that my info helped lead Kelli your way, and that you guys were able to provide her with a competitive quote. I’m sure she and her husband will be happy with their project!
J Popee
hace 3 añosKelli, I am in the Cincinnati area as well. I'm curious to know how you like the Sunrise Windows and if you were happy with Windows Direct. We are currently trying to figure out which windows to get for our home. Thanks for any input you may be willing to share.
- PRO
Windows Direct USA of Cincinnati
hace 3 añosJ Popee. I think we’re the best :). We strive to do a great job on each project. If any hiccups arise we do our best to resolve them in a timely manner.
Chris Jeremy Hughes
Autor originalhace 3 añosJ Popee - you’ve definitely found two of the best in the Cincinnati area. We were very happy with Windows Plus and love our new SoftLite Restorations windows and sliding glass door! Amazing quality at an amazing price. Things didn’t work out with Windows Direct, but they would have been our second choice!
Diana Stuart
el último añoStumbled across this and wanted to add that 3 years later, this post remains accurate. There are two really good options in the Cincinnati…Windows Direct with the Sunrise Restorations and Windows Plus with the Soft-lite essentials. I was comfortable with both but in the end more comfortable with Windows Plus and with their cost 20% lower (and for triple pane vice double pane) it was the right decision for us…but it was not an easy decision.
I would encourage anyone in the area to meet with both companies and skip the rest! There is still no Okna dealer in the area which makes these the 2 best vinyl windows and associated with 2 good installers.- PRO
Windows Direct USA of Cincinnati
el último añoDiana, thank you for your feedback and the opportunity. We wished we could have earned your business. Good luck on your project and let us know if we can ever help. Chris
Window Genius
el último añoDiana Stuart
windows Plus use the Soft Lite ” elements” window. There is no such thing as the Soft lite essentials.
Diana Stuart
el último añoAutocorrect must have nailed me. Of course you are correct, thank you for ensuring accuracy
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Jeremy HughesAutor original