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tritonmom

Combining Inset Cabinets and Overlay

tritonmom
hace 4 años
última modificación:hace 4 años



I am in the midst of a forced remodel due to a leak and partial demo. a few years ago I put in a stunning custom island with leathered Taj Mahal Quartzite countertop. And, I have available a second slab to complete the rest of the kitchen. I could have lived just fine with standout island that has inset doors/drawers and not so custom white overlay cabinets in the rest. But, now I am forced to do something. Of course, I'd love to demo everything else but the island and do total custom (cream) cabinetry and install the slab that has been on hold for a while. But, cost....

Any thoughts if I can have custom inset cabinets built for the bottom cabinets and just paint the existing top ones that are overlay to match?


Respuesta destacada
  • PRO
    Anglophilia
    hace 4 años
    Última modificación: hace 4 años

    Main Line, thank you so much for your “critique” of my kitchen. What a shame I didn’t have you to design it...not!

    i am not a KD. I hired the best in my city. One has serious limitations when one is working with a 1948 house and no walls can come down. One is also limited in how one vents a hood in such a house. One is limited by budget.

    I had two choices: put the stove where the kitchen door to the outside is, or leave it were it’s been since 1984. If the stove were moved, there would now be no direct access to the outside. It would also mean turning the double window in the adjoining breakfast room into a door. Of course, that would entail removing the concrete flight of stairs from the existing place (they are tied into the foundation), and building new ones. NOT a good choice in SO many ways! Or I could have had my large bay window and sink removed and put it where the sink is, leaving me with a dark kitchen and a sink without a window over it on another wall, causing still more problems. Clearly, leaving the stove where it is works best. The hood is able to be vented through an HVAC closet on the 2nd floor and straight on out the roof. That works very well. In the future, if someone buys the house and wants a different stove, they can easily move it over a bit, leaving counter space at the end, and it can still vent the same way. The stove is a monster and has safely resided there now for 35 years. Having the space in the center (the griddle) in which to put a hot pan is useful, but only needed for things coming out of the oven. It’s never been a problem. Pot handles are always turned toward the griddle. Children and grandchildren were taught not to racer through the kitchen to go outside when someone is cooking. No one has ever been burned or knocked off a pot.

    Having cooked in this kitchen for decades, I knew what worked and what didn’t. The main reason to remodel was to get the refrigerator off the end of the stove counter run and to get drawers in the lower cabinets. I wanted a longer counter next to the stove for prep and for plating up dishes. I needed to open up that back corner to the hall. It made the kitchen feel cramped. Is it ideal to have the refrigerator at the opposite end of the kitchen than the sink? No...but in an older house compromises must be made and that was an easy one. When I cook, I get everything I need out before I start. I have a long counter run and my island cart on which to place things. Easy, peasy.

    What works brilliantly about this kitchen is that even only being 11 x 15, three people can be working in that kitchen at the same time, and a 4th can be carrying plates back and forth to the dining room, with no one ever having to say “excuse me” while dancing around another. The refrigerator placement actually facilitates this as one person can be preparing a salad or dessert on the long counter opposite the stove wall, and have easy access to the refrigerator. The person working at the stove can easily grab something quickly, all without being in the way of another. Someone can even enter from the back hall and grab more ice from the freezer for the bar, without getting in the way of those cooking. There is room at the sink for a clean-up person to have room to receive used plates, rinse and stack those needing hand-washing, and access to the DW without opening it being cumbersome. Not one of the kitchen you designed, works this well.

    I may may not be a KD, but I do cook (or used to do so before getting old). I know how a kitchen functions, whether it’s dinner for 1, 4 or a dinner party or holiday meal. I know where to place storage for the best ease of access. I bake and know that means needing to be able to spread things out - that long counter works a treat, and has mixing bowls and baking pans right beneath. Are the cabinets for plates as close the the DW as your “rules” might prefer? No, but they’re close enough and again the island cart and that long countertop provide a place to put things and then put them all away. Glassware is close - right next to the sink.

    i lived with this kitchen for 32 years prior to remodeling. I knew how it “worked” or didn’t work. I knew how I used it. And months were spent planning this remodel, I needed the KD for cabinet sizes to order, not to layout my kitchen, but he and I spent many hours problem solving and trying various placements. No prof KD could ever afford to give this kitchen the thought I did prior to doing the work.

    As a designer, I know the “rules” well enough that I know when they can be broken. And when remodeling, they often must be as most people, contrary to HGTV, are not removing load-bearing walls and putting in huge steel beams, nor are they gutting the house to the studs. A good designer can work with the structural limitations and use creativity to make things work. Only a very inexperienced designer or one lacking any creativity or imagination, allows herself to be hamstrung by “Rules”.

    In my experience, many, if not most, KD’s do not actually “cook” or do much home entertaining, probably because they work full time. My daughter is in the high end hospitality industry, and I know that every time they design a new hotel restaurant (and all are “destination“ restaurants, not just a place for hotel guests to eat), it’s the Executive chef who is hired BEFORE the kitchen is designed, who designs his kitchen. He knows how he runs his kitchen, and where things need to be. No KD on earth knows this. The thought he puts into this is the difference between a chef who cooks delicious things, and one who can do that AND run an efficient kitchen so his helpers are not tripping over one another, and things get to the table at the proper temp. No KD’s CAD skills can equal this knowledge. Of course commercial KD’s then come into play - building Codes, OSHA rules - it’s highly complicated. But the functioning design comes from the chef, and he chooses his equipment. There is a great interview online, with 3 star Michelin French Laundry chef, Michael Keller, telling how he designed the new kitchen at the French Laundry.

    Clearly, we have very different taste where the aesthetics of kitchen design are concerned. I don’t find the kitchens on your website to be very attractive. Of course, I heartily dislike “open concept” kitchens, and one would be awful in my very traditional home. The aesthetic of my kitchen is very harmonious with my house, filled with antiques and beautiful fabrics and wallpaper. It follows all the principles of good design - light, space, compatibility with adjoining rooms, and most importantly, it functions very, very well.

    It pleases me, and in the end, having a client pleased is very important. I hope you’re not as rude to your clients as you’ve been to me. I know many people who live or have lived on the Main Line, and I have never found them very tolerant of rudeness.

    Comentarios (23)

    • PRO
      Patricia Colwell Consulting
      hace 4 años

      We need pictures but as arule those two styles don’t work well together but I need to see pictures .

      tritonmom agradeció a Patricia Colwell Consulting
    • Shannon_WI
      hace 4 años
      Última modificación: hace 4 años

      A poster on this forum named Anglophilia mixed inset and frameless, and has a gorgeous kitchen.

      Anglophilia's Kitchen Reveal Part 1

      Another thread with Anglophilia discussing her kitchen

    • PRO
      Main Line Kitchen Design
      hace 4 años

      I would agree that inset and overlay cabinets can be mixed either by having the island different than the rest of the kitchen or uppers different from lowers. Lowers would need to be the overlay style for the proportions to feel right.

      .

      However the design above by Anglophia is a poor design. It breaks several important kitchen design rules and I do not find it attractive.

    • tritonmom
      Autor original
      hace 4 años
      Última modificación: hace 4 años




      Thank you. If I were to combine further for cost savings, it would be inset on the bottom and keeping exisitng on top. Perhaps, adding toppers to the ceiling because I have hated that space above from day one. But, once I start going that far, maybe I just need to bite the bullet and do it all.

    • bry911
      hace 4 años

      Any thoughts if I can have custom inset cabinets built for the bottom cabinets and just paint the existing top ones that are overlay to match?

      First, I just can't imagine this is a source of savings commiserate with the additional trouble. Uppers are simply cheaper than lowers and once you are in the middle of a demo and install it just seems your savings are not worth the extra work and trouble.

      Next, I personally believe that they mix better when the uppers are inset and the lower are full overlay or frameless. But that is just my 2 cents.

      Good luck.

      tritonmom agradeció a bry911
    • Shannon_WI
      hace 4 años
      Última modificación: hace 4 años

      @Main Line Kitchen Design - I feel bad that I posted Anglophilia's kitchen so that you can give un-asked for insults about it. She is a long-time, respected poster on this forum. Meanwhile, your Houzz page has so many kitchens looking like this, so my goodness, I don't think you can cast stones. From a quick glance, I see inadequate aisle width, inadequate landing space around the cooktop, poorly-placed cooktop, inadequate counter overhang for seating, cooktop and sink too close together, and backsplash that clashes with counter.



    • PRO
      Main Line Kitchen Design
      hace 4 años

      Financially - usually the only options that make sense renovating a kitchen is to either spend as little as possible to make the kitchen something you like better. or to start from scratch and redesign the space.

      .

      Spending 50% or more on a partial renovation is almost always a very poor investment. And no matter how much you like the design in your kitchen now a good kitchen designer will nearly always be able to dramatically improve it. Many customers will not have the vision to recognise the better design immediately when they see it. But usually if the designer forces the customer to at least see better designs the customers will embrace at least some of the better ideas if given enough time to consider them.

      .

      Kitchen designers that give customers the design they as amateurs request are taking the easy road to get the customers money. Our video makes this point in a funny way.



    • Mrs. S
      hace 4 años

      Wow, Main Line Kitchen Design. What an unkind thing to say. Are you sure you don't want to go back and say something nicer about the beloved and well-thought out kitchen of one of the most awesome and long-time contributors to the forum?

    • lucky998877
      hace 4 años

      Tritonmom, I'm combining full overlay and inset (on purpose, custom cabinets, full demo) cabinets BUT I'm also doing a 2 tone one and only the white uppers are inset. I want the dark lowers full overlay for more space, and also some of the detail seems to disappear in very dark cabinetry (I have lots of windows but still...). I happen to love the look of that combo. Your island is stunning!

    • tritonmom
      Autor original
      hace 4 años

      Thank you, all. I am sure I will probably end up doing it all as has long been my plan. Just somewhat forced into it with dishwasher leak. At least it's an excuse to have cabinets to the ceiling, get rid of the hood over island and install zephyr flush hood, add pendants, get the single basin farm sink and ditch the upper microwave in favor of a pull out drawer one. all the things I have wanted to do for a while.

    • remodeling1840
      hace 4 años

      Main Line Kitchen Design....rude

    • PRO
      Main Line Kitchen Design
      hace 4 años

      This will gain me few fans. But, unfortunately one of the problems with Houzz.com is that everyone's opinion is elevated into consideration no matter what their experience or abilities. The most experienced professionals are often treated poorly when their sage advice is not encouraging, and because of this the quality of the forum responses deteriorates each year.

      .

      Some homeowners give advice and encourage dangerous design ideas and posters once they validate their opinion with whoever agrees with them will move forward on ideas that could devalue their home or even put their family in danger.

      .

      I'm sure Anglophilia is a nice person but she isn't an experienced kitchen designer. And so not surprisingly Anglophilia's kitchen has a range on the end of a cabinet run which is dangerous and other design features that are not advisable. The fact that she is, according to people here, a respected and valued contributor to the Design Dilemma Forum is the issue in a nut shell.

      .

      Sorry but you really can't be a good kitchen designer without many years of experience. I would never give advice on taxes or legal matters as I am not a lawyer or accountant. I think most non professionals wouldn't either. But because we all have kitchens many people feel that they are capable of giving advice to others on kitchen renovations.

      .

      A kitchen renovation is the most costly home improvement project most homeowners will embark on in their lifetime. Good advice on a renovation requires a professional personally measuring usually not just the kitchen but the surrounding rooms and sometimes the whole first floor of a home. Using Houzz.com and the opinions that get given on this forum for decision making can be at best problematic and sometimes dangerous.

      .

      As a kitchen design professional being nice and not being honest about a particular design problem, further reduces whatever value this forum has. It isn't what the majority of the Houzz posters want to hear, but if someone doesn't put a range at the end of their cabinet run because they read this comment an injury could be avoided. Or if a Houzer wisely decides to get professional help designing their kitchen their money could be better spent and other mistakes and injuries avoided.

      .


    • cat_ky
      hace 4 años
      Última modificación: hace 4 años

      I agree with the rest of you. Main line is very rude. Anglo's kitchen is very nicely done and looks great. I didnt see a single kitchen on his website, that would appeal to me. One has a backsplash that looks awful with the countertops.

    • cpartist
      hace 4 años
      Última modificación: hace 4 años

      However the design above by Anglophia is a poor design. It breaks several important kitchen design rules and I do not find it attractive.

      ...Anglophilia's kitchen has a range on the end of a cabinet run which is dangerous and other design features that are not advisable.

      I'm glad to see you're highlighting your ignorance and your lack of manners and showing how rude you are.

      First of all, there's an unwritten rule on GW that if a kitchen is done, we don't disparage it.

      Secondly YOUR lack of knowledge is on full display. Anglo's stove is an O'Keefe and Merritt stove and as such has room on the surface to place items in the center. But even if it didn't, Anglo was working within the confines of her 1940's house. It's a beautiful and functional kitchen, unlike some of yours.

      And you shouldn't be talking about what is dangerous and what isn't since one of YOUR kitchens has the oven at the opening to another room. If that wasn't bad enough, there's no place when taking hot food out of that oven to put it down unless you pivot 180 degrees! Talk about dangerous! Imagine taking hot food out just as a little one comes barreling through. Which is more dangerous? Your version or Anglo's?

      Or how about the cooktop on the island with inadequate space around it?

      And lastly those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. (I noticed all of the below in one or more of your kitchens.)

      I mean really, putting a dishwasher between the sink and the cooktop?

      Putting the sink angled in the corner?

      Having a fridge with no landing space next to it so one has to turn 180 degrees to put groceries away or take stuff out and put them down?

      Having a sink directly across from the cooktop?

      Putting a prep sink next to a tall cabinet and having less than 15" between the prep sink and the tall cabinet?

      Honestly the only thing you have proved is how unprofessional you really are both in your comments and in your design skills.

    • cpartist
      hace 4 años
      Última modificación: hace 4 años

      Thank you, all. I am sure I will probably end up doing it all as has long been my plan. Just somewhat forced into it with dishwasher leak. At least it's an excuse to have cabinets to the ceiling, get rid of the hood over island and install zephyr flush hood, add pendants, get the single basin farm sink and ditch the upper microwave in favor of a pull out drawer one. all the things I have wanted to do for a while.

      If you decide to do it all, why not fix the layout too and get the cooktop off the island? Unless your ceilings are 8' or lower, those flush hoods are just about useless. And even then they're not great. Think of how low a standard hood is to the cooktop versus one of those in the ceiling.

      I would even consider moving the fridge so the island doesn't act as a barrier between fridge and sink.

    • PRO
      Main Line Kitchen Design
      hace 4 años
      Última modificación: hace 4 años

      Yes I knew all the armchair designers would come up with all kinds of convoluted reasons why their ideas make sense.

      .

      But unfortunately the reality is that no a range style is EVER put on the end of a run in any kitchen by any competent professional kitchen designer. And ovens opening into dining room doorways are often the best and the safest place to put a wall oven.

      As Picasso may have said:

      “Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.”

      This particularly applies to you cpartist.. As all your critiques are missguided to kitchen design professionals.

      However earlier Shannon_WI was correct in making fun of our 2014 COTY Award winning design. That design is in fact terrible and the fact that it won a design competition shows that even in our kitchen design world bad design is seldom held accountable if the photos are attractive. Of course it is only very inconvenient having the refrigerator behind the cooktop. It isn't dangerous like having no countertop on both sides of a range. And the design was selected by the customer despite warnings from the designer.

    • tritonmom
      Autor original
      hace 4 años
      Última modificación: hace 4 años

      Believe me, I would consider all that and I did before redoing the island. I waited nearly a year for that flush wolf cooktop to be available. I was first person to buy in my area, i was told. There were countless other barrires to those changes. most of which come down to being cost prohibitive and some that are beyond slippery slope and impact on other rooms. poorly designed cookie cutter home that we’ve already made massive changes to. I understand about the high ceiling. my contractor and kitchen designer are guiding on putting the flush fan in a soffit. We rarely use the hood. maybe once a month. I use only for the light. I really wish I could move the fridge.

    • Holly Stockley
      hace 4 años

      Ah, scope creep. I feel you, OP. You start a "little" project, but well, as long as we're doing THIS we should change... And pretty soon it's too big a project to take on!

      I feel like it might be worth looking into frameless, full overlay doors for your lowers, rather than inset? There are some good photos of the difference, here:

      http://www.thekitchenwright.com/cabinet-inspirations-ideas/ninset-cabinets-vs-overlay-what-is-the-difference-and-which-is-best-for-you-ew-post-title

      That might be less jarring, visually, until you can afford to do the uppers, too.

      As to our new little friend - when you are in a hole... stop digging.

    • acm
      hace 4 años

      I think you'll be glad you do the whole thing -- seems like there are several issues with your enjoyment of the uppers, so might as well fix them all at once. You will survive!

    • wilson853
      hace 4 años

      Another option is to eliminate the rails between your inset drawers so that you do not lose any depth in the drawers. That is what I did in my own kitchen as I previously had a frameless kitchen and knew that I would be compromising storage with a typical inset drawer base. If I hadn't discovered that I could eliminate the rails, I was planning to use frameless base cabinets with inset uppers.

      Inset upper with overlay bases.

      Northside Residence · Más información


      Rails eliminated between inset drawers.

      Polo Fields · Más información



      tritonmom agradeció a wilson853
    • Mrs Pete
      hace 4 años
      Última modificación: hace 4 años

      Yes I knew all the armchair designers would come up with all kinds of convoluted reasons why their ideas make sense.

      Dude, quit while you're behind.

    • Olychick
      hace 4 años
      Última modificación: hace 4 años

      "Yes I knew all the armchair designers would come up with all kinds of convoluted reasons why their ideas make sense."

      And pompous people come up with all kinds of reasons to justify their rudeness.

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