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jmmacleon

Fixer Upper / Window Replacement - Need help Navigating The Options!!

jmmacleon
hace 5 años

It's time for us to replace 14 windows in our NYC-area "fixer upper". 10 are 1971 original single-hung wood windows. I'm overwhelmed with where to begin - the internet almost has too many options.


Here's what we have:


6 single-hung wood windows are located in the front of the house & face North/Northeast:

  • 2 in the garage
  • 2 in dining room - w/ insect screens
  • 2 in bedrooms - w/ insect screens
  • All have decorative grills


4 single-hung wood windows are located on the side of the house & face more North/Northwest:

  • All 4 are in bedrooms - w/ insect screens
  • all have decorative grills


4 casing-window-set (2 swivel out & 2 stationary) -is located in the front of the house North/Northeast - all with decorative grills


Our home is a Traditional custom ranch home in the NYC-area.


Overall, I was told to look at Andersen, Pella & Marvins. Specific model(s) were not recommended. Our philosophy towards bigger investments (or car buying) is "practical yet good reputable reliable quality." I'd like the "Toyota or Honda Accord or Honda Pilot-of-windows" & I am willing to consider "upgrades" i.e. energy efficient etc.

  1. What brands / models should I look at ?
  2. Vinyl? Aluminum? I have read pros & cons but I am not convinced on which type after reading.
  3. Is it worth considering buying Andersens from the big box stores? I will not use their general contracting service.
  4. Window world? Anyone use them?
  5. Do I need windows with wood interiors? The interiors of all of my windows were painted white by the previous owner.
  6. Warranty from big box store on the window product?
  7. What am I missing here?


I am so LOST & I am not sure how to begin to cross my T's & dot my i's in this process. Every article I read on the topic today says, "here are the pros & cons" & "look at your budget".


It's easier to deal with a root canal then this!!! I appreciate all the guidance you are all willing to give me...THANK YOU ALL for you time!!!

Respuesta destacada
  • PRO
    Windows on Washington Ltd
    hace 5 años

    Awfully broad strokes comments about the "mark up those window companies get".


    I don't think there is a window company that is worth their salt that will tell you that they will ever compete with a "Chuck in a Truck" type of contractor set up on price. There is this little expense called "overhead" that tends to make the company's option a bit more expensive to deploy.


    I suppose I could get some beef and bread and say that my per hamburger price is cheaper than McDonalds too. I would be neglecting some significant expenses that go into the Calculus of that price arrival than aren't just "mark up".


    Just a few items that might add to the expense of a McDonald's hamburger over frying one in a pan at home:

    • Building
    • Installers
    • Liability Insurance
    • Workman's Comp Insurance
    • Taxes and County fees
    • Office staff
    • Vehicles and Insurance
    • Warranty service after the fact
    • Marketing and Client procurement
    • Legal and Professional fees

    The list can go on from here and can vary by municipality to municipality. The point is that you would expect that a single contractor in his personal vehicle would be cheaper on the whole. That said, to claim that the window contractor (i.e. a specialist in windows vs. a general contractor) is just "marking up" something and that is the reason from the delta is quite incorrect even in those situations where you are comparing product to product (i.e. a Home Depot window like an Andersen or similar).


    • Comentarios (24)

    • Tony Stevens
      hace 5 años
      Última modificación: hace 5 años

      Vinyl is generally more energy efficient. They're all very similar with little tweaks that they can upsell to increase the profit margin. Window World is the cheapest, good window with the highest volume. The other companies essentially make the same thing and their sales reps push the "additional features". It's a competitive market being a sales rep for a window company. Markup is pretty high, so you have some wriggle room for bargaining, particularly in early spring when the work is picking up again after winter. Not a good time to be chasing bargains at present when contractors are running full speed to finish jobs before the snow, but it's worth asking nevertheless.

      jmmacleon agradeció a Tony Stevens
    • einportlandor
      hace 5 años

      You might try contacting your utility company. They often have programs for energy efficient upgrades, lists of products and contractors they recommend, etc. There may even be some tax credits that will help you decide. Worth a try.

      jmmacleon agradeció a einportlandor
    • PRO
      Beth H. :
      hace 5 años

      vinyl retro fit windows w/the low e, double pane glass will be the cheapest/most efficient. As was stated, mark up is horrendous. My husband installs these windows for friends and clients and gets an average window for a few hundred. That same window w/a big company and installation would prob cost you 1500. Shop around, determine what you want. you can have vinyl outside and wood inside if you want to paint.

      jmmacleon agradeció a Beth H. :
    • PRO
      Solar Texas
      hace 5 años
      Also check with your city planning department. Many municipalities require a minimum efficiency standard for replacement windows.
      jmmacleon agradeció a Solar Texas
    • jmmacleon
      Autor original
      hace 5 años

      Hi HU-1707379, einportlandor, Beth H., Solar Texas:


      Thank you ALL for taking the time from your evening to respond. You all brought up great reference points!

      1. Was leaning vinyl because I thought would be easier to care for in the long-term & for price practicality.
      2. Duh - my interior window trim is all white so I guess I can save some $ (if that it works) and just stick with white vinyl interior-of window
      3. I was looking at the Low E.
      4. Already checked all of my utility companies online & they do not offer any rebates on windows.
      5. I will certainly check with the city building department.


      Two Additional Questions:

      1) Does Triple pane matter? My sister in law got it but she lives in colder-longer-winter New England. We have landscaping that helps with noise from a nearby Main Road.


      2) My general contractor can install my windows - if I lean that route - do you all have any positive/negative feedback towards me ordering windows directly from the window company & having him take care of the install?


      Thank you all I'll keep you posted with our decision.

    • Jen Hans
      hace 5 años
      We have been replacing all of our windows with Marvin Integrity. They are fiberglass exterior and wood interior (ours are painted white). The Integrity line of Marvin is "luxury home builder grade". We are happy. We installed them ourselves.
      We went with fiberglass over vinyl or aluminum clad because of its lack of flex - no expanding or contracting. There are tons of forums on 'Houzz that would bw helpful and guide to at least the type of windows you want. We narrowed to Andersen 100 series and Marvin Integrity and Marvin was cheaper and had fiberglass.
      We also only buy Hondas and Toyotas .
      jmmacleon agradeció a Jen Hans
    • PRO
      Beth H. :
      hace 5 años

      get a price from you GC. I know a friend of ours got a quote from a window company (or maybe it was home depot) for close to 16K for 8-10 regular retrofit windows. my husband ordered the windows wholesale and installed them for him. 8K. and he still made a heck of a profit. that lets you know how much of a mark up those window companies get.

      jmmacleon agradeció a Beth H. :
    • jmmacleon
      Autor original
      hace 5 años

      Thank you all again for such detailed responses. I think, no matter what, we all want to get our bang for our buck for quality materials & construction.

      1. Reading more about fiberglass
      2. Agreed - there are costs everywhere - or as the economic adage says, "there's no such thing as a free lunch"
      3. Going to ask my GC what cost he would get at a local building supply store for Marvin/lother window
      4. Will get a quote from up to 2 larger scale window contractors


      We got burned badly 2 years ago from a GC for a fireplace facade + custom cabinets renovations. He decided he didn't need to complete the job - so we fired him. It's made me "reluctant" to continue with additional renovations - I had been "willing" to deal with my 1980's bathrooms/kitchens but I know it's time to move forward. The house we bought has good bones & the mechanicals are updated. So now it's just 1 project at a time.


      Thank you all again for your advice - If i have any specific questions - I will ask.

    • PRO
      HomeSealed Exteriors, LLC
      hace 5 años

      Some solid feedback here. I'd add the following:

      -On material, you can/should narrow your choices based on the project goals. A high quality vinyl product is a great choice for performance/value. A wood interior option is nice where aesthetics are weighted heavily and vinyl doesn't quite cut it. Fiberglass is nice for the right circumstances, but other times it falls short of vinyl performance despite the price premium. Throw out the propaganda about expansion/contraction and tensile strength. While there is truth at the very root of those issues, they are eliminated as a concern in the process of going from a piece of raw material into an engineered, assembled, and installed window. I would stay away from the cheap vinyl however, just as cheap, low-end models of any material are not desirable. The difference in quality and performance can be night and day from top to bottom. There are not just "additional features" from one product to the next, but significant differences in engineering an build quality. Some are designed for a low price point, others are designed to last many years and offer excellent performance. The latter will obviously cost more.

      -On installation vs product sourcing: I'd HIGHLY recommend a package deal. Peruse this forum for some time and you will see exactly why. If the installing company does not supply the windows as well, be prepared for finger pointing if/when issues arise. When you buy the product through the installer, he/she will be far less likely to try and wash his/her hands of the situation by blaming product failure, as they sold you that product.

      -On the "mark-up" issue, WoW has nailed that on the head. Its easy to get an idea of window cost, estimate labor time, etc, however those things do not account for the cost of doing business or a reasonable profit (typically single digits net). Ironically enough industry statistics show that design-build firms generally have a higher profit than "specialty contractors", which is the group that window and door dealers are generally categorized into.


    • PRO
      Pella Windows and Doors
      hace 5 años

      Hi there! We think that our Impervia line could be a great option for you if you are considering fiberglass windows: https://www.pella.com/windows/fiberglass-windows/ Our fiberglass windows will get you the energy efficiency you are looking for along with a great updated look for your home. We'd love to get you set up with a free in-home consultation whenever you're ready to talk about what options will be best for your project!


      KS

      Pella Community Team

    • fridge2020
      hace 5 años

      Beth h sounds more like the wife of chuck in a truck than her self described design build firm. Flipping homes and installing windows for beer money is not the way that most design build firms operate, nor would they fail to understand basic business concepts and criticize others that follow them. Ironically, her installing of replacement windows at $1000 a piece as a house flipper that pribably didnt even do them correctly is likely a far bigger ripoff than paying a premium to a legit company. But yeah, window guys are the real crooks, lol

    • suzyq53
      hace 5 años

      Just to mention, the national brands are not the only option. There are local companies with factories that make their own replacement windows. You may find higher quality and lower costs going that route, especially when you get them all at once. They also install and service their windows and have comparable warranties.

    • PRO
      Beth H. :
      hace 5 años
      Última modificación: hace 5 años

      hey fridge2020. who are you to make assumptions at what I or my husband does? just because he gives his friend a nice discount that makes him a hack? You automatically assume they're installed incorrectly, because why? it's a lower price? GTFO. I'm saying that window companies charge a lot more for their windows and install them than is necessary.

      I have a solid oak 5' french door that I paid $1100. The exact same type of door that HD sells at over 2K. I know this because I went to the manufacturer and got it wholesale. And the door was unfinished. I stained it and finished it, husband installed it. To contract that out would have cost over 4K. Oh but yeah, go on,, we don't have a clue what we're doing.

      Oh, and my 'chuck in a truck' also built the room that the door is attached too. See that beautiful master bathroom w/the vaulted ceiling and skylight and the casement window? we also did for a fraction of the cost. How much do you think a company would have charged to do the skylight and that window?? Guess what we paid? 0.

      But sure, keep talking out of your arse because you can't wrap your head around the fact that regular people get overcharged.

      fridge2020,,,you sound like a disgruntled curmudgeon who is pissed off that some people can actually do things for themselves without taking money out of the college fund. I did not advise the OP not to choose a window company, I advised them what else is out there. I'm sure they're old enough to decide for themselves which to choose.

      And Windows on Washington,,,same goes for you. Obviously large companies have overhead. But if a person wants to install a few windows and doesn't have a spare 10K, what should they do? All I'm saying is there are other, less expensive options. If you use the exact same window and I use the exact same window, yet there is a 2K difference in price, should the OP automatically pay that to support your overhead? That's what makes this country so great. I can choose another qualified person to install it just as well as your company does for a lot less money. You automatically assume that the install is inferior because of this 'chuck on a truck' mentality. Not good.

    • fridge2020
      hace 5 años

      Kind of sucks when people make negative commmets about you based on assumptions doesn’t it Beth?

      Your comments are pretty telling as to your level of professional experience. Congrats on doing some remodeling on your own home by the way. Not sure how it could cost $0 unless your time and that of your husband is worthless. That ”wholesale” door? Bologna. Calling shenanigans on that. Home Depots prices are typically very close to what would be paid to a wholesaler or even direct from a manyfacturer. Maybe you got an inferior quality product and are just saying it’s the “same”, but no, you could not buy a French door for nearly half price of what HD charges even if you bought a high volume from a manufacturer and got fabulous pricing, which does not sound likely.

      And yes, your description sounds almost exactly like chuck in truck, not a design build firm as youve described yourself. Chuck in a truck remodel his own home, is a handy guy, does a bunch of different stuff some well some maybe not. What chuck does not know is how to value his time and labor to run a viable long term business and also be able to service his clients down the road when they have issues.

      Your comments on window companies overcharging is pure ignorance, and you’ve received a response in kind.

      Best of luck by the way. If this is something that you and your husband intend to do professionally for a while, I do hope that you come back in a few years and update this post that you’ve learned how to properly price your services.

    • suzyq53
      hace 5 años

      Back off Fridge you are WAY out of your league on this one. You don't know what you don't know and don't have the sense to find out. Don't come on here and judge and disparage other people. You didn't even comment on the original post. That makes you a mean-spirited troll.

    • PRO
      Beth H. :
      hace 5 años
      Última modificación: hace 5 años

      fridge202 ,,,you have no idea what you're talking about based on a few comments. take your judge-y attitude elsewhere. my comments on window companies is spot on. What negative comments did I make about YOU? you personally attack me because I said window companies can overcharge?? (Well, can they??? if so, then what's your beef? )

      If you don't like my comment, scroll on by. what kind of insecure, troll are you? I gave you one price my husband charged to a friend and that set you off? seriously? do you have emotional issues or what?

      I tell you I paid 1100 for the same door that HD had at 2K and you're calling me a liar? why? I told you it was solid oak. how inferior of a door is it? to say "you can't buy a french door for half of what HD sells it for", is truly ignorant on your part. That also gives you a clue at how much they, and other window companies, overcharge. Why don't you crawl out of your cave and do some shopping.

      based on your prior activity, you sound like a very angry window person. You came on here only to bash my comment, never once offering the OP any type of help. Very troll-like. If you were doing that spectacular in your business, you prob wouldn't be here insulting others who offer other options to people who don't want give up a kidney for new windows/doors. You would just go along your merry way and deposit those over-inflated paychecks into your bank account.

    • PRO
      Windows on Washington Ltd
      hace 5 años
      Última modificación: hace 5 años

      Not sure why you are taking issue with my comments.


      All I pointed out that they VERY broad strokes commentary with regards to mark-ups. You said (quoted for accuracy):

      • "that lets you know how much of a mark up those window companies get."


      I stand by my remarks in this case. There is nothing that is even remotely based on opinion in my post and clearly nothing that was personal in nature.


      Feel free to read it over again and I would respectfully request that you confine your responses to perceived offenses to those parties that may have offended you.


      If you take issue with my comments that were completely impersonal in nature, than I suggest you take it up with the government and the laws of economics.

    • PRO
      Beth H. :
      hace 5 años
      Última modificación: hace 5 años

      windows, you made the chuck on truck comment, and then fridge took that ball and ran with it, insulting me numerous times in the process. So, your comment was not impersonal. ( however, most of the above comment was in response to Fridge, not you)

      If you take issue with my comments that were completely impersonal in nature, than I suggest you take it up with the government and the laws of economics

      personally I don't care what either one of you charge your customers. It's a free forum and I also have the right to post my opinion on here. So if you, or others don't like what I say, then I suppose you can do the same.

    • jmmacleon
      Autor original
      hace 5 años
      Lively posting all around!!

      Again, I appreciate the time all of you have taken to post information based on your experiences. I have a 2 appts booked for estimates. If I can get them done before hardcore winter arrives.... great! If not, I can wait another winter. I shall keep you all posted!

      My reno question was not meant to fire up anyone --- it was the last thing I expected from this houzz community.

      Again, I appreciate everyone's time!!!!
    • PRO
      Windows on Washington Ltd
      hace 5 años

      Tell me again what is specifically personal about "Chuck in a Truck". That is neither personal nor an unknown term in the contracting industry. It not meant to be derogatory in my estimation and is merely meant to refer to persons that are sole proprietors that have little to no overhead in comparison.


      If you take issue with Fridge, by all means, take it up with him/her. I would respectfully request that you deal with them by name and leave me out of the response.


      If you would like to discuss the cost of doing business in a more employee driven system and why those expenses may be higher, I would be happy to do so.


      Perhaps it will give you some more insight and a better understanding as to why and how things cost the way they do in a different type of organization.


      For the record, I have more than a few friends that are enormously successful and competent contractors as sole proprietors. I take no issue with that, but to make a comment with regards to "mark-up" that it is merely a company making some enormous profit on the consumer, it flatly false, uninformed, and somewhat irresponsible.


      You are quite right, it is and open forum and you are more than entitled to your opinion. I would only caution that if you are going to hold yourself out as a resource of information, that the information be somewhat enforceable and factually based is all.


      I would no more cast dispersions about sole proprietor contractors that paint them in a negative light than I would comment on any large group of persons that are as varied and different as the weather. Perhaps that would be advisable for everyone when it comes to levying negative commentary that they be based in fact rather than opinion.

    • PRO
      Beth H. :
      hace 5 años
      Última modificación: hace 5 años

      Perhaps fridge using that term in a derogatory manner is what bristled my hair. I'd never heard of the term. Jack of all trades,,,,,,, yes. So I will apologize to you if it seemed like I was taking you along for the ride, that wasn't my intent (i'll edit)

      as for my comment about 'mark-up', I said window companies, but named none. (Perhaps I should have stated, "some window companies" instead of 'those'. I got crucified for that one word) I was referring to the actual mark up that the friend of my husband got. The company quoted him 16K. All I said was that using the same windows, and my husband doing the install, it saved him about half. Sorry, but to me that's quite a mark-up. I'm also aware of what install charges are for doors and windows. Yes, I understand about overhead and everything else included with running a business. My mark-up comment never said anything about the company "making enormous profit off the consumer". You make it sound like I said all window companies are greedy thieves looking to gauge their clientele by egregiously inflating their profit margin. never said that. I said, and still stand by what I said, that there is a mark-up for buying and having the windows installed. period. I gave a personal example of my comment and was quickly scolded by you (in a polite manner) and the troll.

      Of course, mark-ups can vary from region to region and include countless entities. Maybe your specific company is very fair. Others are not. I'm sure the OP is not an idiot and can also figure this out on their own.

      I merely pointed out to OP another option that might offer some savings. Did I do something inappropriate?

    • PRO
      Windows on Washington Ltd
      hace 5 años

      Apparently I was caught up in the fridge melee as collateral damage.


      The "those" in your comment is a bit more broad strokes than an anecdotal story that is specific is all.

      • I know a friend of ours got a quote from a window company (or maybe it was home depot) for close to 16K for 8-10 regular retrofit windows. my husband ordered the windows wholesale and installed them for him. 8K. and he still made a heck of a profit. that lets you know how much of a mark up those window companies get.


      Seems a bit more generalistic commentary is all. Your math may not be wrong after all is said and done. I do know of contractors that charge a fair labor rate for their work but do not put any mark up on the product and/or have the numerous expenses associated with a more company driven set-up that can quickly escalate the cost of an installed service.


      Nothing surprising about that in the least. Did you know that some insurances can rise to 30% of a given person's salary alone? Crazy when you actually look at the expenses in a broken down format.


    • PRO
      Beth H. :
      hace 5 años

      Win. Wash- yes, you were. And it would seem I was hasty with my pronoun usage. As I stated above, perhaps I should have gone with 'some'.

      I think we've flogged this horse as far as the carcass will allow.

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