how bad are these old bow windows?
Our 1.5 1950's brick colonial/ranch has two 5-lite bow windows facing the street. They are in the two bedrooms. They each have varying degrees of water damage in the ceilings, mold/mildew, draftiness, old flaking paint, and rotten/spongy exterior. I believe they're original to the house and that the water damage is from a previous gutter problem. We know we need to paint our exterior trim next summer, and I don't know whether it makes more sense to clean up and repair these windows (replacing wood where needed) or just to get new windows. FWIW we have the drapes drawn most of the time, for privacy. A few photos below - what do you recommend?
Comentarios (52)
Hannah Koenker
Autor originalhace 6 añosI was having trouble posting additional pictures, but here are a couple more:
Water damage in the 'ceiling' of the bow:
Wider shot of bedroom for context:
PROWindows on Washington Ltd
hace 6 añosI think you are probably due as well. For the damage in the ceiling of the bow, you need to look critically at the roof and wall connections.
User
hace 6 añosIs a bow or bumped out window a necessity? I don't see either adding much to the inside (except visually, a little)...
- PRO
Patricia Colwell Consulting
hace 6 añosI would replace with just flat windows no bump out at all if possible. You have some serious mold issues that you should address right now to make these spaces even livable until spring when the windows can be replaced . There are mold abatement products you can get .
- PRO
Window1
hace 6 añosThe spaces being livable?? Thats just a bit melodramatic.
he definitely needs a new window and that in itself will take care of any mold.
get a well made window and a proper installation and you will be fine.
the water near the ceiling will be addressed when the new window is installed.
PROJoseph Corlett, LLC
hace 6 añosI'd check into finding a reputable window restoration contractor before speaking to a window salesman.
PROJudyG Designs
hace 6 añosÚltima modificación: hace 6 añosWe replaced ours (two in front and one on the side) with double hung (the space took three). I like the outside look much better (we did black windows with white siding). Plus the windows are operable to give much needed breezes.
gtcircus
hace 6 añosI love the way others say get new windows. I have bow windows, do you have any idea how much those windows cost to replace? They are a fortune, the most expensive window to replace. I’d find out how much it would cost to repair versus new and then make your decision. Five years ago I bid it out and to replace it was going to run about $10,000 a bow window installed. Not joking.gtcircus
hace 6 añosThe reason for the water damage was your gutters were not maintained and you got ice damsHannah Koenker
Autor originalhace 6 añosJudyG thanks for the before/after pics - your house looks great! I am nervous about the cost of replacement bows but equally so about switching to flat. It's not like our house is an architectural marvel, but there is something to be said for the original aesthetic.
gtcircus
hace 6 añosI think your home has a lot of charm. A good carpenter can do marvels. I would remove the sheet rock or skim plaster to make sure there is no mold growing behind the windows. You can viscquene off the area to keep the dust down. I wish you the best of luck and hope you post your decision.
- PRO
Window1
hace 6 añosÚltima modificación: hace 6 añosIts absolutely mind boggling that someone is recommending a window restoration carpenter.. that is very ignorant advice. You need a new window and thats a fact. You can get a well made bay or bow window for much less than 10k. Quite honestly, i dont know why so many people who know absolutely nothing about windows feel the need to give the OP bad advice. Its kind of silly.
- PRO
Joseph Corlett, LLC
hace 6 añosÚltima modificación: hace 6 años"Its absolutely mind boggling that someone is recommending a window restoration carpenter.. that is very ignorant advice. Quite honestly, i dont know why so many people who know absolutely nothing about windows feel the need to give the OP bad advice. Its kind of silly."
Window1:
I have restored windows professionally and successfully at the Oliver House in Toledo, Ohio, thank you very much. I have attended a window restoration conference hosted by a local window restoration company. My work has appeared in Old House Journal among many other publications and I'm a contractor licensed in two states.
What is true ignorance is ignoring the possibility of saving historic fabric and saving lots of money simultaneously. Window salesmen rarely want to do the true cost/benefit analysis because the payback on new windows, even calculating their energy efficiency, is usually more than 30 years. It is silly not to get as much information as possible before making a decision.
- PRO
JudyG Designs
hace 6 añosÚltima modificación: hace 6 añosHannah, found this article..maybe it will help you decide.
7 Factors That Determine Replacement Over RepairHowever, when determining the cost-benefit ratio between purchasing replacement windows versus repairing existing wood-frame windows, you will need to consider the following factors:
- Cracked or broken glass (Safety as well as visual acuity).
- Rotting or split muntins, (The vertical pieces of wood separating panes of glass).
- Upper or lower sashes which are unable to move (From layers of paint, coming off-track, or broken or nailed cords on sash weights).
- Missing or rotting drip (The exterior "shield" above the top of the window).
- Loose, cracked, rotting, or missing exterior casing (trim).
- Missing or brittle putty holding glass panes to the muntins.
- Excessive water infiltration.
If your windows have three of more of the problems listed in this replacement window checklist, it is likely time to replace rather than repair.
- PRO
JudyG Designs
hace 6 añosÚltima modificación: hace 6 añosHannah, we had to reposition the side windows as it prevented reasonable arrangement of furniture…that side of the house is living and dining.
The other two windows had issues and our builder recommended we replace. The new double hung windows were a fraction of the cost of the bays.
The house was built in 1976, and the elderly widow had just let it all go. It simply was time to do them all. The clapboard siding was a mess and one side of cedar shingles was replaced as well. At the same time we added solar panels to the back side of roof…full South exposure. The new windows combined with the solar has resulted in tremendous savings in fuel.
I agree with your not wanting to change the exterior look and I was not suggesting that you do…just sharing what we found to be the most efficient way to move forward with renos.
geoffrey_b
hace 6 años@joe: "I have restored windows professionally and successfully at the Oliver House in Toledo, Ohio"
I don't know the Oliver House, but the OP has a 1950's (that's 68 yrs/old) - plain old house. It's time for those windows to go.
@belleburgmaggie: "The reason for the water damage was your gutters were not maintained and you got ice dams also do you have any idea how much those windows cost to replace? "
This is also misinformation. You get ice dams because there is not enough insulation and ventilation in the attic. The snow melts on the roof, runs down to the edge, and freezes. After some time the melting snow backs up, under the shingles. Also in the picture, the windows are under the eaves.
As far as replacement costs: get a home improvement loan. It's really not responsible to let things go to hell, and let the next guy fix it. All homes need upkeep.
I have Marvin Low-E, double pane, windows. I'm in Minnesota were it's -15 F, and there are no drafts nor condensation on the windows.
Get new windows - you will be glad you did. If you're getting a loan, include in the price some new window coverings - maybe cellular - and ditch the drapes. With cellular blinds there is no stacking on the sides of the window.
A Fox
hace 6 añosGeoffrey, I do not claim to be a window specialist, but I am a restoration architect, and have worked on several projects that involved both window replacement and window restoration.
In general, I don't think that the answer is ever as clean and dry as that the windows are old and need to be replaced. In any condition where the windows are old but in great condition and can have or already have storm windows installed, I think it makes great sense to leave the windows be. Unless someone is staying in the home for a very long time, the energy cost savings for new insulated double pane windows and yearly maintenance will more than likely never make up for the costs of the new windows. After all a double pane insulated window is only slightly better at retaining heat than a tight single pane window with good storm windows. If you add low E coating, the savings are a little better but not that much more significantly.
Take for instance my own house: Seventy years old, original windows are in great condition, storm windows are in fair condition. At most we stand to save an average of $50 per month in heating/AC with new windows, but good quality replacement windows could easily cost us $20,000 for the whole house. We are also not in an area where such an investment would ever be recouped at resale.
So what it all comes down to is in how bad of condition the OP's windows really are. The storms and trim really doen't look that bad from the outside. But someone would really need to be there to probe exactly how much rot has occurred and what percentage of the wood can be retained. The fact that there is damage on the inside is particularly troubling since that means that there could be severe internal damage as well. But maybe that interior photo only occurs in one condition.
Overall that is why some of us here are recommending that the owner get both a restoration specialists bid and a replacement bid, then weigh that against potential cost savings, and concerns with comfort, maintenance and aesthetics. Overall, these are some very attractive, character defining windows for this house, and it would be a shame to throw away their charm just because they are old. The owner may find that doing some due dilligence on their real condition and cost will be worth it in the long run.
suedonim75
hace 6 añosThe Oliver House is a 159 year old building. One of the first hotels built in Toledo. It is a beautiful building and has hundreds of windows.
geoffrey_b
hace 6 añosÚltima modificación: hace 6 añosWell I am an engineer (not that one has to be), and I'm very good with my hands. I can easily make all sorts of replacement wood pieces for windows - and there are many guy's who can do this - but why?
Storm windows are such crap. They have been obsoleted with good quality double pane windows. Windows you don't have to paint (on the outside), and there is none of that crappy glazing to go brittle and fall out. Double hungs tilt in for easy cleaning - you don't have to go outside to clean the window.
Comfort and Maintenance - a new window would be tops.
If the owners of these homes (not just the current owners) would have made gradual improvements, then there wouldn't be the expense of replacing all the windows at once. So the last owner in the chain - either paid too much for the home - or lived there too long without incrementally improving the property.
PROHomeSealed Exteriors, LLC
hace 6 añosÚltima modificación: hace 6 añosThe biggest problem here is that most window salesmen overstate the levels of energy savings that new windows will provide, while most proponents of restoration and even many in the building science community understate them (mostly with obsolete information, ie: who installs double pane windows with clear glass in the last 15-20 years?) This is due in large part to the sleazy tactics that window companies have engaged in throughout the years.
The fact is, windows will take a while to pay for themselves in energy savings. That said, one might ask why they would be held to a different standard than something like a kitchen or bath remodel which pay little to no return. New windows provide all of those same benefits (enhanced look and feel, ease of operation, improved comfort in home, improved property value, etc), all while earning back some of that investment in the process.
Ultimately, there is not a right or wrong answer as to whether windows should be restored or replaced, it really depends on the circumstances. In this case, based on the organic growth and peeling interior paint, it looks like a safe bet that these windows stay pretty cold (keeping the drapes closed will make sure of that), and probably see some condensation as well.
There are two things that are inarguable: 1) These windows are in need of attention on way or the other, and 2) given that they are single pane and in a bow configuration, replacing them would definitely improve energy efficiency.
If you love the original charm Hannah, I'd suggest exploring some ways to improve them during the process of restoration, including adding insulation above and below, and possibly adding low-e storms or a film to mitigate heat loss. At that point, an analysis of the cost to restore these compared to replacing would be appropriate. On the other hand, if you don't have any attachment to these units, replacing them would be the cleanest and easiest way to achieve your goals imo. Maybe get a quote or two both ways and then decide accordingly...
To answer your original question once again though, yes, these look pretty rough and need some attention one way or the other.... As far as any additional damage to the surrounding frame or areas, probably not. It would only necessitate removal of the interior wall board if say the rough sill showed substantial damage (visible upon removal of the window). Older bays and bows tend to sag toward the exterior, and water will generally follow that plane as opposed to leaking into the wall.
User
hace 6 añosIt's not always easy to do what's recommended...especially from an online forum.
Hannah, nobody can tell you the extent of the damage, but I know that from experience it's not always feasible to restore. Your house isn't historically significant so that you need to restore. I have no way of knowing if you live in an area where craftspeople are available to you...And based just on the photos, I feel that you may be just on the other side of repair.
But really, this is a decision to be made by you after you talk to people who can visit your house and tell you.
Good luck. And don't wait too long!
chiflipper
hace 6 añosÚltima modificación: hace 6 añosLove the charm those windows provide, hate the maintenance. I think Beverly's suggestion of framed boxes is a terrific idea. Boxes will allow you to add much needed insulation (over and under), new windows, and keep the charm.
Hannah Koenker
Autor originalhace 6 añosWow, I stepped away for 24 hours and did not expect to find this rich discussion! Thanks everyone for your inputs. I am contacting several options now and we will see what they say when they get a closer look at the situation. We do live in an historic neighborhood (although our house is an outlier!) so I'm hopeful I can get some restoration quotes/opinions in addition to replacement. Having already insulated our attic I don't think we stand to gain too terribly much in energy efficiency, although we plan on being in the house for many years. But I do want to fix the problems we have.
- PRO
Window1
hace 6 añosÚltima modificación: hace 6 añosFor every sleazy window salesman, there is a sleazy plumber, sleazy restoration expert, sleazy chiropractor, sleazy lawyer, sleazy politician, sleazy teacher, sleazy cop, and so on an so on.
You never buy windows to save enormous amounts of money on energy bills, its impossible to quantify. Lets say you cant watch tv on a sofa thats next to an inefficient window without wearing a jacket. Well, buying a well made , energy efficient window will enable you to watch tv in comfort without a jacket.
can you put a price on that savings???? No, but its usually money well spent and its a huge increase in quality of life wouldnt you agree?
of course you can roll the dice and call Mr window restoration carpenter or whatever he calls himself in the above post and have him turn your old/ inefficient window into a bird house. The window can be restored to its original inefficient self. He sounds like a real winner. Is he also the inventor of the glow in the dark tooth pick.??
yvonnecmartin
hace 6 añosWe have a large bow window in our living room (24 windows with glass 20 X 16 inches). To replace the glass with lowE double pane cost approximately $4000. The wood and just needed scraping and repainting. The window make the living room. I love sitting in front of it when I read the Sunday paper.
- PRO
Joseph Corlett, LLC
hace 6 años"You never buy windows to save enormous amounts of money on energy bills, its impossible to quantify."
I's not only not impossible, it's quite easy. You simply divide the energy savings of new windows into their cost. This tells you how long the new windows will take to pay for themselves. Doing so will make a homeowner sound like a real winner. - PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd
hace 6 añosThat math seems a bit off to me. If you were going to compare the ultimate costs of restoration vs. replacement, you wouldn't not quantify the cost of the restoration and more importantly, the cost of ownership over the project lifespan and ownership of the new window.
- PRO
HomeSealed Exteriors, LLC
hace 6 añosÚltima modificación: hace 6 añosJoseph Corlett, is it safe to assume a bit of sarcasm regarding the energy savings calculations of replacement windows? ... If so, I agree, what you have stated is along the lines of what many window companies have touted for years in their energy savings "guarantees", using unrealistic figures of 40 and 50%+ in energy savings. Unfortunately it is not that simple, nor are precise savings very easy to calculate. One could get somewhat close in modeling the reduction in air leakage as well as the improvement in average wall r-value, but there are still many other factors involved that make that pretty hard to nail down. Something like 15% is not entirely unrealistic, although again, not terribly easy to quantify. The comfort and other factors mentioned need to be accounted for as well.
@Hannah, you are on point with your assessment of the attic being of top priority (pun intended), however, hopefully that work included air sealing in addition to bringing the insulation levels up as that is crucial. It's really the basis of the home performance industry... On those windows, given the size and protrusion into the elements, they can definitely be a bigger energy drain than an average window. My recommendation would be to consult a contractor that has the knowledge and experience to assess your situation from a home performance perspective, not your typical window sales guy? Where are you located? Perhaps a recommendation can be made.
Hannah Koenker
Autor originalhace 6 añosHi @HomeSealed, yes, they did air sealing as well, but as our leakiness was primarily in the attic and basement so they focused there. Our energy audit (done soon after we had moved in 4.5 years ago) noted that the windows weren't "too drafty" and that they would be part of a phase 2 retrofit (which is where we are now, I supposed). Our house generally just doesn't have much exterior wall insulation. My closet, for example, has a side against the outside wall, and I pulled a pair of seldom-used snowpants that had been on the wall out this morning and they had mildew. Our kitchen has three exterior walls and we were told there was no great way to add insulation - minimal room to spray in, so a lot of $$ for not much R-value. Right now it's 10 degrees F outside and our lower kitchen cabinets are a great place to store drinks that need to be cold (lemons out of lemonade!). But I'm in the Baltimore area, and we don't have to deal with this type of weather for more than a couple weeks per year.
- PRO
Window1
hace 6 añosÚltima modificación: hace 6 añosAs important as insulating an attic is, that doesnt obscure the fact that leaky/ inefficient windows will still be a big problem with comfort and energy bills.
another important point to make is that old windows are equally as problematic in the summer months. Just as cold air infiltrates a home in the winter, hot air infiltrates a home in the summer. That causes your AC to work that much harder as well as consume more energy. Again, comfort is an issue with heat in the summer as well.
restoring a 1968 camaro with a 454 v8 will certainly look nice but it will never be fuel efficient.
apple_pie_order
hace 6 añosThe three things that give your house its charm are the windows, the front entry, and the landscaping. If you replace the bow windows with new ones, the house will keep the character it has. If you choose plain flat windows, the house will have only the front entry and landscaping as its prime features. You could improve the landscaping in the spring- new landscaping would not be cheap.
- PRO
HomeSealed Exteriors, LLC
hace 6 añosI'm glad to hear that Hannah, you went about things the right way using a real pro for the insulation stuff along with the energy audit.
As far as your location, Windows on Washington who has commented on this thread may actually serve your area and would be an excellent resource. Not only do they carry phenomenal products, but they are also well versed in the home performance realm and can make sense out of all of this for you. I definitely consider talking to them if you have not already done so. Excellent outfit.... My guess is that they can probably throw a thermal cam on those exterior walls for you as well and see what's going on in there.
- PRO
gtcircus
hace 6 añosyvonnecmartin - what were the size of the windows and who provided the bid? I need to correct my prior post, it was $10,000 a window but I had two in one room. I didn’t do it because I couldn’t justify the ROI on such an expenditure as my windows were still fine and working. I have a conservatory and its a big energy DRAIN, but I love it. If I had an energy audit they would tell me to tear it out.
yvonnecmartin
hace 6 añosThe windows are 16 X 18 inches. We went with the medium R-value for the double glass. The glass was replaced by a local company. I can't find my bill, so I don't know the exact amount. The glass was replaced approximately 8 years ago. I should mention that it is much warmer sitting next to the windows in winter. That said, we also have mini-blinds and a sheer drapery that we can close when it is hot or cold.
gtcircus
hace 6 añosyvonnecmartin, my bow windows were 10 feet wide which may explain why they are so expensive. Thank you fo responding hopefully it will help the OP- PRO
Joseph Corlett, LLC
hace 6 años"The 2018 Camaro is not to efficient either, wonder what the payback period is ?"
Excellent point. When you're selling replacement windows, you sell the sizzle (how you feel driving the Camaro/how warm and snuggly you and the kids will be with new windows), not the steak (the window itself). Hannah Koenker
Autor originalhace 6 años@bellburgmaggie my windows are basically 8'x5'. I will make sure I am sitting down when I get my quotes!!
gtcircus
hace 6 añosMine must be usually large at 10 feet by 6 feet - but not the largest I’ve seen. And I only have 4 which would have made a $40,000 investment - not worth it to me to replace. Mine are the older Pella which have aluminum exterior and wood interior. I don’t think replacing them would gain enough in my case to justify that kind of out lay.- PRO
Window1
hace 6 añosÚltima modificación: hace 6 añosNo one would ever buy a camaro for fuel efficiency. No one would ever restore a window for energy efficiency. Having a high quality window installed will make a very big difference in comfort, that cannot be disputed.
I have no idea what your point is joe corlette other than the fact that you claimed to do work in the oliver house. Whats next, you did work at maxwell house? Will you get a coffee discount.,
- PRO
HomeSealed Exteriors, LLC
hace 6 añosÚltima modificación: hace 6 añosMaxwell House! Lol! .... ironically that one almost made coffee come through my nose...
I’m going to disagree with both of you guys, and say this is a fantastic analogy.
1968 Camaro 396, 0-60 in 6 sec+/-, qtr mile in 14.6 +/-, and mpg of roughly 13 combined. Cost: let’s say around $20k to restore a solid candidate
2018 Camaro 4cyl turbo, 0-60 in 5.4sec, qtr mile in 14sec, 25mpg combined. Cost: $26k off the showroom floor.
Most car guys will probably take the 68 every time, simply for the intangible reasons, but as far as mileage, performance, comfort, technology, etc the 2018 wins in every measurable area. 69’ is the most sought after and ‘70 is my personal fav, but that’s neither here nor there.
Payback? Let’s say you drive 15k miles per year. I wouldn’t drive a classic as a daily driver personally, but then again I wouldn’t keep rickety old windows either. Anyway, at 15k miles and a gas price of $2.80per gal, you’d save about $100 per month in fuel with the 2018. Coincidentally, that covers the extra $6k in cost just about exactly if we are financing the spend over say 60mos, which is typical. The 2018 would probably get a better rate of financing which would push the savings further as well....
All of this is in good fun of course, but again, I think restoring a classic Camaro vs buying a new one actually is a pretty good analogy here, and it’s fun to illustrate that as opposed to popping in and taking baseless cheap shots against window guys.
At the end of the day, both have pros and cons, with with the Classics (both cars and windows) having more subjective benefits, whereas the new stuff is objectively a slam dunk.
- PRO
Window1
hace 6 añosÚltima modificación: hace 6 añosWait a minute Homesealed, i thought your only interest were windows... now i find out you are a car fanatic!! Lol
i was going to use a 1971 GTO as my example but i didnt think anyone would get it.
- PRO
HomeSealed Exteriors, LLC
hace 6 añosNice! ... My '66 Buick Wildcat would be even more obscure!... now back to windows! ;)
PROWindows Direct USA of Cincinnati
hace 6 añosYou can and I have many times replaced only the windows int the bow unit and leave the bow itself. This would most likely save some serious $ but the bow structure must be in good shape with little or no rot. To make the exterior look good and maintenance free your installer must be excellent with a brake. Id also ad that the top of the bow that has water damage is most likely not due to a leak but the seat and header on those are thin laminated wood and the damage has been from sweating/condensation over the years.
- PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd
hace 6 añosInserts are usually an option. The OP windows are fairly small here and inserts might start to get a bit boxed in when it comes to glass size reductions.
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BeverlyFLADeziner